Chances of an automatic?

[redwineforme]

I know most of you will probably object to the idea of an Si having an automatic option such as a DCT, but I would welcome it and would trade in my current manual for it. In your opinion, what are the chances they introduce a new DCT option for the Si?

 

[RobbJK]

I think it might actually happen. I would say the acura sourced DCT is probably the best bet, as we could see similar powertrain arrangement in the next acura compact sedan as well. I wouldn't totally rule out the 10 speed auto from the accord either, but that seems less likely considering expense of the 10 speed over the older DCT. We already know CVTs aren't great with more torque/power, so I don't think it'll be a CVT.

This was given maybe a grain of possibility in the recently shown pictures of not one, but two civic sedans (what we assume were Si spec) seen testing along side a 10th gen Si sedan. My initial thought was that, one test car was a manual, and the other could be the auto. It would make sense that they'd want to test them together to compare and contrast driving experience/performance/etc.

I'm all in favor of keeping manuals the default on cars like the Si. But given that every one of the Si's competitors offer an auto option (therefore broadening they're mass market appeal, and thus, sales) it makes sense for honda to offer an auto. Another way to think about it is the accord sport.... obviously that's no longer offered in the manual... but the Si would essentially fill the same slot in the Civic lineup as the 2.0T accord sport. So you'd have the base Sport trim for those on a budget, offered in the MT/AT options and the Si would essentially be the step up option for more power/performance.

I get that the argument about an auto Si somehow taints the heritage of the name... but honestly, honda did that the second they put in a turbo charger... the Si is no longer the high revving screaming NA car it was. And when it comes down to it... if honda wants to offer niche trim levels like the Si... sales volume matters. And an auto option would help make those sales happen. An auto Si hatchback is probably the highest on my list for next car (assuming I can get past the new styling).

 

[redwineforme]

I think it might actually happen...

Thanks for the reply Robb. I think you've hit the nail right on the head. It is niche, and no longer what it used to be once the turbo was added, so adding an automatic option makes complete sense to me too, for a broader appeal and to sale more cars. I hope it's coming, if not, I will probably have to trade my current Si in for a car with similar specs, but with an automatic option since I am getting old, and for a daily driver, it can get tedious.

 

[Aero2001]

I wouldn't be surprised if the 8DCT from Acura showed up in the upcoming Civic Si, because they have tested the 1.5T with that transmission and even allowed journalists to drive it a few years ago: https://carbuzz.com/news/honda-may-ditch-the-civic-s-boring-cvt-in-favor-of-a-dct If, however, the Si gets a more powerful engine that 8DCT might need to be modified to handle the torque. I believe it can only handle 200 lb.-ft., but I'm not sure. (There was also that 7DCT from the RLX, which clearly could handle more torque.)

Regardless, I think Honda should do it. The brutal traffic in large metro areas has made MT increasingly unappealing, even for die-hard MT drivers like me, and of course some folks don't have full use of both legs and physically can't drive MT, including injured military veterans. As long as MT remains available, I'm good.

 

[adc3132]

We already know CVTs aren't great with more torque/power, so I don't think it'll be a CVT.

An auto Si hatchback is probably the highest on my list for next car (assuming I can get past the new styling).

We know THIS particular CVT isn't great with more power. CVT's have been banned from racing, I can't recall exact details, but because of the ability to hold rpm at optimum power they have an "unfair advantage". That being said, I think CVT will be the trans of the future. Think about it we used to mostly have manual for high power cars, now it is the opposite and most high power cars from the factory are DCT with paddles if you want the manual feel.

The next logical step is the CVT... Sure doesn't sound nearly as great holding the same exhaust note going from 20-100mph but I think the ability to stay at ideal rpm will outweigh that. It's just going to be a totally different animal, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are already some high strength CVT's in development that can hold crazy numbers. If after years and years they have built crazy strong trans systems that can hold CRAZY power and torque, it's just a matter of time for the CVT... Until everything is electrified and we don't have a trans anymore lol.


I agree with you man... I don't think I can get past the styling. I love the 10th gen, and will get a Type R by the end of 2022.

 

[RobbJK]

We know THIS particular CVT isn't great with more power. CVT's have been banned from racing, I can't recall exact details, but because of the ability to hold rpm at optimum power they have an "unfair advantage". That being said, I think CVT will be the trans of the future. Think about it we used to mostly have manual for high power cars, now it is the opposite and most high power cars from the factory are DCT with paddles if you want the manual feel.

The next logical step is the CVT... Sure doesn't sound nearly as great holding the same exhaust note going from 20-100mph but I think the ability to stay at ideal rpm will outweigh that. It's just going to be a totally different animal, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are already some high strength CVT's in development that can hold crazy numbers. If after years and years they have built crazy strong trans systems that can hold CRAZY power and torque, it's just a matter of time for the CVT... Until everything is electrified and we don't have a trans anymore lol.

I don't disagree with you on this. I don't mind my CVT in my civic. It pairs very well to the 1.5T in part because it's so good at holding rpms in the optimal range. With no lag between gear shifts, it helps make the civic as quick (for an economy car) as it is. And while I know honda loves their CVTs... something tells me that an auto Si would more likely adopt the acura DCT or even the accords 10-speed auto, if for no other reason than the fact that they already exist and can already handle more oomph than any CVT honda currently has. So in the name of saving on r&d costs for an all new beefier CVT... I think a more traditional auto/dct with paddles will be what they go with for the Si, if they decide to at all, especially to help preserve the sporty feel of the Si over the regular civic trims.

I think with the speed that electric cars are coming at us currently (honda set to introduce their first EV with the GM ultium soon), I don't think CVTs will have the time to take over completely, and we'll continue to see a mix of auto options based on the driving experience automakers want to give people until, like you said, transmissions are all but phased out.

 

[adc3132]

I don't disagree with you on this. I don't mind my CVT in my civic. It pairs very well to the 1.5T in part because it's so good at holding rpms in the optimal range. With no lag between gear shifts, it helps make the civic as quick (for an economy car) as it is. And while I know honda loves their CVTs... something tells me that an auto Si would more likely adopt the acura DCT or even the accords 10-speed auto, if for no other reason than the fact that they already exist and can already handle more oomph than any CVT honda currently has. So in the name of saving on r&d costs for an all new beefier CVT... I think a more traditional auto/dct with paddles will be what they go with for the Si, if they decide to at all, especially to help preserve the sporty feel of the Si over the regular civic trims.

I think with the speed that electric cars are coming at us currently (honda set to introduce their first EV with the GM ultium soon), I don't think CVTs will have the time to take over completely, and we'll continue to see a mix of auto options based on the driving experience automakers want to give people until, like you said, transmissions are all but phased out.

Yeah man, I don't think there is enough runway for development in production at all Personally as much as I hate the idea of a lack of combustion as a whole, we do really need to move in that direction unfortunately. I do think there are companies actively working on race-spec CVT's but they are way too far off for the next gen here, I was just kinda speculating about them in general lol.

To be honest I think Honda would lose a majority of their customer base for the Si if they went away from the manual... It is and always has been the affordable enthusiast car that is loads of fun to drive, and from what I gather almost all of these people would only drive stick especially nowadays since a manual trans is getting few and far between. As much as I enjoy my cvt with paddles, this will be the last automatic car I buy until that dreaded time we speak of when new cars will not require one. And I don't even have much of any experience driving stick!

 

[Ethan]

I think if we see an auto in the Civic Si it’ll be a CVT.

 

[RobbJK]

Honda would lose a majority of their customer base for the Si if they went away from the manual

I don't think Honda will discontinue the manual for the Si... they'll just add an auto option, like most of its competition. I agree losing the manual totally would be a BAD move on their part for the Si. But if we see an automatic Si, it'll be sitting with standard manual Si's and the auto will just be an $800-1200 option. Keep the customer base while also expanding its appeal to more buyers.

 

[Aero2001]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are already some high strength CVT's in development that can hold crazy numbers. If after years and years they have built crazy strong trans systems that can hold CRAZY power and torque, it's just a matter of time for the CVT... Until everything is electrified and we don't have a trans anymore lol.

I'm not sure the WRX has what we'd call crazy power and torque, but it has a lot more than the upcoming Si is likely to have, and Subaru offers it with a CVT. It's apparently not bad, so it must be very different from the atrocious CVT in our 2016 Forester. At first I didn't mind it, but I've grown to despise it. (It's not just the transmission itself, but the throttle mapping at low speeds. Ugh.)

I'm open to considering an automatic for my next car, but I don't think I could tolerate a CVT in a Civic Si, even assuming it's much better than my Subaru's. The 8DCT from Acura could be cool though. I drove an early 1G TLX with that transmission, and it was great.

 

[Tags]

IIRC, Honda was very close to offering the DCT on the 10th gen, but got cold feet at the last minute. Maybe they finally take the plunge this time. I would very seriously consider it, as the 2nd-gear crunch, CDV, rev hang, and rubber-band torque characteristics of my current Si make manual shifting less than wholly enjoyable, even with various mods. There's no question that the DCT would be real-world quicker in traffic.

 

[sjd]

I don't think Honda will discontinue the manual for the Si... they'll just add an auto option, like most of its competition. I agree losing the manual totally would be a BAD move on their part for the Si. But if we see an automatic Si, it'll be sitting with standard manual Si's and the auto will just be an $800-1200 option. Keep the customer base while also expanding its appeal to more buyers.

The problem I have with them offering an automatic Si is that dealers will order the majority of them as automatics because they know they can push people into them because no one plans their car purchases and settles for what's on the lot and available immediately. Then Honda will say the manual doesn't sell and discontinue it. It just happened with the Accord.

It's the same reason all cars are grey, silver, white or black and they don't offer bright colours.

 

[se7encrows]

The problem I have with them offering an automatic Si is that dealers will order the majority of them as automatics because they know they can push people into them because no one plans their car purchases and settles for what's on the lot and available immediately. Then Honda will say the manual doesn't sell and discontinue it. It just happened with the Accord.

It's the same reason all cars are grey, silver, white or black and they don't offer bright colours.

I can see this happening, but if they offered the Acura DCT transmission I can see that being a worthy alternative. Don't give us some bs 10 speed AT.

 

[RobbJK]

The problem I have with them offering an automatic Si is that dealers will order the majority of them as automatics because they know they can push people into them because no one plans their car purchases and settles for what's on the lot and available immediately. Then Honda will say the manual doesn't sell and discontinue it. It just happened with the Accord.

It's the same reason all cars are grey, silver, white or black and they don't offer bright colours.

I fully get what you're saying, certainly a risk, not at all without merrit... look how many luxury and sports cars recently have gone fully auto with no manual option. However I will counter that idea with... "nobody buys manuals... we'll just cancel the Si all together, the sport trim will be sporty enough...."

It almost happened with the 10th gen... Honda Japan didn't see the point of the Si because of the Type R coming to the US but Honda of America pushed to continue offering the Si as a bridge between the normal civic and Type R. And arguably that can be seen with the 10th gen in how close the performance numbers between the Si and say... a turbo EX trim come to eachother, closer in raw numbers than any previous civic/Si comparison.

So while offering an auto option could potentially end the manual (all manuals are going to go once electric takes over in the next 10-15 years) I'd rather have honda offer a more powerful/sporty auto Si than no Si at all...

 

[sjd]

I fully get what you're saying, certainly a risk, not at all without merrit... look how many luxury and sports cars recently have gone fully auto with no manual option. However I will counter that idea with... "nobody buys manuals... we'll just cancel the Si all together, the sport trim will be sporty enough...."

It almost happened with the 10th gen... Honda Japan didn't see the point of the Si because of the Type R coming to the US but Honda of America pushed to continue offering the Si as a bridge between the normal civic and Type R. And arguably that can be seen with the 10th gen in how close the performance numbers between the Si and say... a turbo EX trim come to eachother, closer in raw numbers than any previous civic/Si comparison.

So while offering an auto option could potentially end the manual (all manuals are going to go once electric takes over in the next 10-15 years) I'd rather have honda offer a more powerful/sporty auto Si than no Si at all...

What's your source on the 10th gen Si almost not happening? I haven't heard that.

You're right the EX performance numbers are close to the Si but that's actually an argument against an Si automatic. People who want an auto can just buy an EX. I also guarantee that an automatic Si will not come with an LSD.

I agree that EV's will negate the manual transmission but I'm not giving mine up until then. So if the Si ends up auto only, I won't buy one. Maybe they'll make it up with other sales but I won't go auto until I go full EV. 11 of my last 12 vehicles have all been manual including 3 Si's, a 2000, 2015 and now my 2019.