Engine ran without oil for unknown period of time (short time) - Honda Dealership did not torque drain plug and it fell out while driving.

[Rhorn]

I have a fair degree of OCD, which can be brutal as a mechanic (good for customers though). I always double and sometimes triple checked my work. I remember once changing the oil on our shop landlord’s truck before going home one day. That night I was lying in bed and all of a sudden the thought hit me “oh shit, what if I didn’t tighten the drain plug?! I must have, but I don’t specifically remember doing it.” I left extra early the next morning to make sure I could sneak under his truck in his driveway to check the drain plug before he left for work. Lol. Of course it was tight, but it would have driven me crazy until I knew for sure.
I guess most dealership techs don’t have this problem. They need to get as many jobs in and out as possible in order to make payments on that $85k Snap On debt.

This is the biggest reason why I despise car dealerships. Aside from the scummy sales with service its just as bad. Parts and labor is so expensive now but the techs aren't seeing any of that money so you still get the same flip of a coin service. Its just trash all around and none of that goes to the tech.

I have no problems paying a premium to have some TLC. But with dealerships you pay more for garbage.

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[Starchland]

Shit happens, it will probably be ok but I definitely wouldn’t want them poking around and taking it apart, that would likely be more detrimental. Cut open the old filter if they still have it and look for bearing material. Can you get a 10 year warranty?

I think or hope we all have those lying in bed, oh shit moments. Did I turn off the stove? Lock the front door?

 

[MooMoo]

What torque spec do you use?

30 ft lb or 40 nm

 

[AZCWTypeR]

Years ago my Acura dealer employed what appeared to be minimum wage, unskilled labor for oil changes, tire rotations, and then wash the car before returning it.
I declined that service.
Skilled mechanics were reserved for the big stuff.

 

[Samurai1225]

That sucks this happened to you. What a nightmare. I’ve had many people question me about why on earth I still change my oil. This is the perfect example as to why I plan to change my own oil as long as I am able.

 

[SIFL5]

Shit happens, it will probably be ok but I definitely wouldn’t want them poking around and taking it apart, that would likely be more detrimental. Cut open the old filter if they still have it and look for bearing material. Can you get a 10 year warranty?

I think or hope we all have those lying in bed, oh shit moments. Did I turn off the stove? Lock the front door?

Unfortunately they already did and required me to allow them to do so before any resolutions were made. They opened top half of engine and inspected bearings/pistons/cylinder walls. They saw normal wear and tear. I’ll attach some pics, because I don’t know what normal wear and tear would look like on a 5k miles engine. May be someone with more mechanical experience can chime in.

As far as warranty it’s a 6 year 100k extended warranty, so I assume that warranty starts after the original manufacturer warranty ends at 5 years or 60k miles. So in total it’ll be like I’m covered for 11 years or 100k miles.

They are confident nothing is wrong with the engine and no damage was done so I asked them if we could revisit the idea of trading in my car for another one on the lot but I told them I wanted a trade in value that would be equivalent to me buying another type r with 5k miles. Owner should be in on Monday, so we’ll see what he says.

I would keep the car, but I really wanted to tune the car with Hondata. I actually already have everything to tune the car but now I’ll be worried that if anything happens to the engine they’ll blame it on the tune. Ultimately I don’t want to keep the car if have to keep it completely stock.

 

[SIFL5]

Back Story: I took my 2024 FL5 to a Honda Dealership for my first oil change, it had about 5k miles, so I thought it was probably a good idea to get it done sooner than later. Dealership completed oil change and dropped off my car at my job that evening. After getting off of work I drove back home which is about 12 minutes from my house and didn't drive the car the rest of the night.

The next day I had trip planned to go see a couple of college friends. 10 to 15 minutes into my drive I hear a loud pop sound and first thing that comes to mind is that maybe my exhaust pipe fell off or something. When I looked up at my rear view mirror I see a cloud of white smoke and instantly get worried and immediately turn around to go back home since I was right around the corner. I was relieved when the white smoke left, but then my fear came back when I heard loud vibrations. I could hear and feel the vibrations anytime I stepped on the gas pedal. A minute from my house my dash lights start flashing stating oil pressure low and to contact dealership. At this point I'm panicking and decide to turn off the car and put car in neutral and push the car the rest of the way down to my house. When I got to my house I looked underneath the car and there was a bunch of oil spewing out of the oil pan. I go and check the engine dipstick and the engine is dry. When going up to the house I notice oil drops all over my driveway and puddle of oil in the garage which I didn't notice when I pulled out of the garage (I wish I would have cause I could have probably prevented a lot of damage).

So I immediately call Dealership and tell them what happened. They agreed to have car towed to shop and provided me with a loaner. They ended up confirming that the technician didn't properly screw oil drain plug and with the vibrations the oil drain plug fell out which caused the oil to drain completely. I explain to them my fear that the car had suffered internal damage due to the heat and the fact that the car ran without oil for some unknown time, albeit probably a short time. They told me they replaced engine oil and that no DTC errors came up. I told them that I wanted more reassurance and wanted them to check cam bearing and pistons and cylinder walls to make sure nothing was warped or scored. I honestly didn't even want to go this route, because I was afraid that I would be messing with the integrity of the engine because I had to trust that the guys would be meticulous and precise this time around and make sure every nut and bolt was torqued to factory spec. In the end I was actually required to do this before they would give any resolution to my options.

I provided them with the following options.

1.) My car is practically brand new and only had 5k miles and the fact that it ran without oil, even for a minute or two, in my opinion ruined the integrity of the engine and most likely caused premature wear and tear decreasing the life span of the vehicle. So I asked them if they could buy back the car and pay me what it would cost for me to buy a similar FL5 on the used market with similar miles. That was a hard no for them. They stated they could only give me wholesale price and wouldn't be able to offer me what I wanted for it.

2.) I then offered to trade in car but still wanted them to give me a trade in value that would be similar to what the market rate is for the a 2024 FL5 with 5k miles. That was also a no. They stated they are willing to fix their mistake. Which they are working on, but it's been hard for me to convince them that my peace of mind can't be bought anymore and the fact that they can't 100% say with certainty that there is no damage does not make me feel any better.

3.) Lastly, I asked for extended warranty to provide me protection past the manufacturer warranty just in case something does go wrong. They agreed to give me a 100k 6year extended warranty. They assure me that with the warranty I don't have to worry about engine not being covered as long as I stay up to date with maintenance. My fear is that in the future if something does happen I may not be covered, because of something in the fine print that I didn't read.



I have documented proof of them admitting to mistake and them requiring me to open up my engine. I also have photos of engine and proof that once again their quality control measures are subpar as there was red lint all over critical areas of engine from their red shop rags. I feel that if they believe the car is all good then they should have no problem buying car from me even if it means losing or not making money on my car to make this right.

What would you guys do in this situation? Would you just take warranty? And take the gamble that nothing happens in the future? Even though I shouldn’t have to take any gamble given the fact that I basically brought in a brand new car to them and now it’s ruined in my head in terms of peace of mind?

Here are some pics I took of engine. They didn’t check crank bearings because they felt confident that nothing was wrong by looking at top half of engine. Also to get to crank bearings they would have to remove timing chain.

 

[Starchland]

I get that you had to let them (it looks like they only took off the valve cover) and herein lies the question of what is normal looking. The thing is that taking off the cam caps doesn’t show you any surfaces that would be fed pressurized oil in the bottom end, which I believe to be under more extreme pressure (crank main bearings, big end rod bearings)

FWIW, I have taken apart a few f20s which bottom ends are pooched, but the head presents as good to reuse.

 

[cryptolime]

What torque spec do you use?

a couple pounds over spec. 32 ft./lb.

 

[SIFL5]

I get that you had to let them (it looks like they only took off the valve cover) and herein lies the question of what is normal looking. The thing is that taking off the cam caps doesn’t show you any surfaces that would be fed pressurized oil in the bottom end, which I believe to be under more extreme pressure (crank main bearings, big end rod bearings)

FWIW, I have taken apart a few f20s which bottom ends are pooched, but the head presents as good to reuse.

Yeah they did give me the option of looking at the crank bearing, but they wanted to get my permission first because in order to get to the crank bearings they would have to take the timing chain off. They stated that the top half of the engine is the last place to receive oil so they were confident that since the top half looked good that the bottom half would be the same so it wasn’t necessary to look at. At that point I was already scared of something possibly going wrong with the timing chain so I decided to trust them. But what you’re saying makes a lot of sense and multiple other friends have said the same. If they don’t take my car as a trade in I may have them take the bottom half apart. I don’t want to but at least that’ll provide me with a little bit more peace of mind.

 

[Starchland]

If they are confident then, have them put it on paper and on file and whatever the longest warranty term. maybe free oil changes as well for life

 

[MooMoo]

If they are confident then, have them put it on paper and on file and whatever the longest warranty term. maybe free oil changes as well for life

but what he is saying is that he wants to tune the car so even if they give him warranty for 20 years they could always deny it if they he is tuned and they blame it on the tune.
Also lol at the free oil changes, I dunno if OP is ever going to let a dealer do an oil change on a car again.


Keep pushing for the trade but man I dunno, I have very little faith that it will go through even though have mechanics spend hours taking the engine apart they probably will be out similar money. Also dealers are scummy enough that they would turn around and sell your car to someone and not mention that the engine was run without oil

 

[Starchland]

yea true about the oil changes, but will the OP start doing his own work now? Unlikely.

the denial of warranty based on a tune will always be used by a dealer regardless of this issue happening or not. Nobody can prove anything either way. But if the dealer is saying the car ok (whatever that means) and a tune is ok under warranty, then play ball no?

 

[OldPirate]

30 ft lb or 40 nm

I watch them like a hawk, I always remind them to toque it to 30 lb. When I see them not doing this then I call the manager and tell him that the tech are not following the customer request.

 

[Tougefl5]

Two choices talk to a attorney and be prepared to pay for one. Or take the deal the dealership is giving you.
If you want to build the car you might as well kiss the warentee goodbye. It's not like your going to make warentee claim on fbo jailbreak etc.

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