Stock Front Camber and tire wear on track

[BigBird]

I do time trials and Time Attack, I try to run greater than -2.5 in most every car but this car seems very camber limited from the factory, but is track focused. I'll be running 200TW tires

How bad/good are the front outside tire wear?

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[ayau]

It’s camber limited from the factory just like every street car. You can get aftermarket ball joints to get more camber.

 

[Modular Cal]

I've seen UP TO 2 degrees camber with the suspension pins pulled, but it seems 1.8 degrees is the norm with the factory adjustments.

 

[mmdct]

i pulled the pins and had the car aligned to -1.8 with zero toe and factory caster.

after 5 track days my stock tires have apparent shoulder wear but they don't look like they are cut at an angle. i rotate after every event and do a side to side every 3. my tracks (thompson and lime rock) are very right turn biased.

my tracks work best with warm tires around 41 front / 39 rear (measured about 5 minutes after ending a 20 minute session). lower pressures feel like the tires are scrubbing more.

my ambients have been high 60s to high 70s. one day was 82. track temps have been in the 90-100 range.

i am a conservative driver. i run intermediate SCCA track days and do not push the car to it's limit. i've gotten a couple of "A" LogR scores, but i'm usually a "B."

i am aware of the ballade fk8 camber plates. will these work on the fl5?

what other options do we have for -2.5 or better in front?

how many hours labor should i expect to pay for the install?

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

i pulled the pins and had the car aligned to -1.8 with zero toe and factory caster.

after 5 track days my stock tires have apparent shoulder wear but they don't look like they are cut at an angle. i rotate after every event and do a side to side every 3. my tracks (thompson and lime rock) are very right turn biased.

my tracks work best with warm tires around 41 front / 39 rear (measured about 5 minutes after ending a 20 minute session). lower pressures feel like the tires are scrubbing more.

my ambients have been high 60s to high 70s. one day was 82. track temps have been in the 90-100 range.

i am a conservative driver. i run intermediate SCCA track days and do not push the car to it's limit. i've gotten a couple of "A" LogR scores, but i'm usually a "B."

i am aware of the ballade fk8 camber plates. will these work on the fl5?

what other options do we have for -2.5 or better in front?

how many hours labor should i expect to pay for the install?

Optimum camber does vary on the tyre - I'd call myself a track veteran with the fastest posted FL5 times on the major race tracks in my state. The Log R calls me an S+ driver if its anything to go by. The below has been my personal experience on the FL5 so far - running RE71RS 275/35R18 on TE37SL 18x9.5 +45 on stock suspension.

I ran -1.8 front on the first time I went out (which was stock just with the pins removed like yours) and found it was definitely not enough - with a lot of feathering on the outside shoulders.

I installed the hardrace lower ball joint for FK8 which works perfectly on the FL5, set to the middle sitting, to achieve -2.7 and found the tyre wear much improved on the 2nd time out. It could have done with a touch more camber by maxing out the ball joint setting and bringing the strut tops back out however I believe this would have the effect of pushing the wheel outwards and minimizing the tyre to fender clearance. The other option is to go coilovers with adjustable strut tops to give you greater range of adjustment. Or the balade FK8 camber plates which will work however it would introduce some NVH as all pillow ball tops tend to do - so at that point you might as well have gone coilovers. It took me around an hour a corner to install the ball joints being my first time - it could be done in less.

I'll be out on Spoon springs next and will see how the current -2.7 goes on stiffer spring rates. I do know for a fact that A052's require more negative camber to work well due to the softer carcase. And since my car is a daily driver I am running a compromised set up intended to be a little more track biased than street - if it was a track only car I'd max the ball joint setting to -3.6 and call it a day

 

[keller]

i am aware of the ballade fk8 camber plates. will these work on the fl5?

At least on the FK8, those camber plates won't work with stock springs. It's better to get lower ball joints instead.

I installed the hardrace lower ball joint for FK8 which works perfectly on the FL5, set to the middle sitting, to achieve -2.7 and found the tyre wear much improved on the 2nd time out.

I'll be out on Spoon springs next and will see how the current -2.7 goes on stiffer spring rates. I do know for a fact that A052's require more negative camber to work well due to the softer carcase. And since my car is a daily driver I am running a compromised set up intended to be a little more track biased than street - if it was a track only car I'd max the ball joint setting to -3.6 and call it a day

The whiteline lower ball joint makes it really easy to adjust your settings before/after a trackday, faster than changing pads. You don't need to remove any bolts, just unscrew them a few turns, adjust and tighten them again. And get an alignment. But, like you, I leave it alone with -2.5 even though I also run yoko a052s haha.

Your -2.7 camber is before or after installing the lowering springs?

 

[BigBird]

Optimum camber does vary on the tyre - I'd call myself a track veteran with the fastest posted FL5 times on the major race tracks in my state. The Log R calls me an S+ driver if its anything to go by. The below has been my personal experience on the FL5 so far - running RE71RS 275/35R18 on TE37SL 18x9.5 +45 on stock suspension.

I ran -1.8 front on the first time I went out (which was stock just with the pins removed like yours) and found it was definitely not enough - with a lot of feathering on the outside shoulders.

I installed the hardrace lower ball joint for FK8 which works perfectly on the FL5, set to the middle sitting, to achieve -2.7 and found the tyre wear much improved on the 2nd time out. It could have done with a touch more camber by maxing out the ball joint setting and bringing the strut tops back out however I believe this would have the effect of pushing the wheel outwards and minimizing the tyre to fender clearance. The other option is to go coilovers with adjustable strut tops to give you greater range of adjustment. Or the balade FK8 camber plates which will work however it would introduce some NVH as all pillow ball tops tend to do - so at that point you might as well have gone coilovers. It took me around an hour a corner to install the ball joints being my first time - it could be done in less.

I'll be out on Spoon springs next and will see how the current -2.7 goes on stiffer spring rates. I do know for a fact that A052's require more negative camber to work well due to the softer carcase. And since my car is a daily driver I am running a compromised set up intended to be a little more track biased than street - if it was a track only car I'd max the ball joint setting to -3.6 and call it a day

So curious to find out how the spoon progressive springs compare to the factory linear springs. I have not seen any lap times ever posted with springs vs no springs ...so definitely let us know!

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

The whiteline lower ball joint makes it really easy to adjust your settings before/after a trackday, faster than changing pads. You don't need to remove any bolts, just unscrew them a few turns, adjust and tighten them again. And get an alignment. But, like you, I leave it alone with -2.5 even though I also run yoko a052s haha.

Your -2.7 camber is before or after installing the lowering springs?

The thing I dont like about the whiteline design is that it doesn't have a recessed home for the flip chip - rather it is secured by pins and by the friction between the mounting surfaces - so I prefered the hardrace design as it appears to offer a greater level of strength and security with the recess.

-2.7 is both on Spoon springs and without. As the macpherson strut doesn't benefit from natural camber gained from lowering. In severe cases it actually gains positive camber throughout the bump stroke.

So curious to find out how the spoon progressive springs compare to the factory linear springs. I have not seen any lap times ever posted with springs vs no springs ...so definitely let us know!

Unfortunately I wont have an apples to apples comparison on the track I'm going to this Sunday as I didn't have the ball joint then and thus was only running -1.8

The main thing I'm looking out for is if the chassis oscillating bouncing is reduced during hard cornering by the higher spring rates. It appears to reduce it by 50% from Spoon/Tsuchiya's video. Will definitely report back!

 

[keller]

The thing I dont like about the whiteline design is that it doesn't have a recessed home for the flip chip - rather it is secured by pins and by the friction between the mounting surfaces - so I prefered the hardrace design as it appears to offer a greater level of strength and security with the recess.

Yeah, that makes sense. I figured it was tested enough in real life. Since you removed your strut pins, it's also friction that is holding your strut in position. If any of these camber adjustments change on track, the resulting change in toe is definitely concerning. Wunderladen has recently started selling locks for the strut tower.

-2.7 is both on Spoon springs and without. As the macpherson strut doesn't benefit from natural camber gained from lowering. In severe cases it actually gains positive camber throughout the bump stroke.

I didn't expect that. Here's a FK8 just lowered on spoon's and strut pins removed with -2.1 of front camber. His bump steer kit improves the camber gain a bit, but I'd have expected a similar result in your FL5 i.e. closer to -3 deg after the lower ball joint.

Since the strut is slanted (even more after pulling the top pin) and the LCA at static height has to point down, I really expected some camber to be gained during initial compression (like after lowering a few mm). What am I missing? This is a drawing of the fk8 front suspension at static ride height, for reference:

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

Yeah, that makes sense. I figured it was tested enough in real life. Since you removed your strut pins, it's also friction that is holding your strut in position. If any of these camber adjustments change on track, the resulting change in toe is definitely concerning. Wunderladen has recently started selling locks for the strut tower.

This is a good point - however I figure that you've got the length of the strut as a form of lever and force reducer by the time the latitudinal forces make its way to the top. The math in my head roughly calculates a heap of greater forces acting on the knuckle than at the strut top. Additionally there are 3 bolts there instead of 2. I could be completely wrong though and I'm sure there are many who have experienced strut top adjusters on their coilovers moving after hitting a ripple strip too hard.. I guess all we can do is select parts we believe will be most reliable.

As a side note - the hardrace lower ball joint is advertised to increase negative camber in 1 degree increments - however I have found it closer to 0.9 degree's per increment. This however could be due to inaccuracies in my camber gauge or discrepancies during installation (some potential slop between the bolt and the bolt holes of the flip chip).

I didn't expect that. Here's a FK8 just lowered on spoon's and strut pins removed with -2.1 of front camber. His bump steer kit improves the camber gain a bit, but I'd have expected a similar result in your FL5 i.e. closer to -3 deg after the lower ball joint.

Since the strut is slanted (even more after pulling the top pin) and the LCA at static height has to point down, I really expected some camber to be gained during initial compression (like after lowering a few mm). What am I missing? This is a drawing of the fk8 front suspension at static ride height, for reference:

While the angle of the control arm appears to point downwards at stock height under static load in that concept render - the key angle is made between the centre point of the lower ball joint and the lower control arm pivot point at the subframe. Its difficult to tell where that exactly is in this diagram but here's a rough estimate - and it shows a far straighter line than the control arm angle suggests.

From my testing I have found no gain or loss in negative camber at stock height vs -20mm. I believe its right where the articulation of the control arm is at its peak equillibrium in terms of the front camber curve on this chassis.
I'm not sure how the other's have gained camber there. However, I will remeasure to double check and report back.

 

[BigBird]

The thing I dont like about the whiteline design is that it doesn't have a recessed home for the flip chip - rather it is secured by pins and by the friction between the mounting surfaces - so I prefered the hardrace design as it appears to offer a greater level of strength and security with the recess.

-2.7 is both on Spoon springs and without. As the macpherson strut doesn't benefit from natural camber gained from lowering. In severe cases it actually gains positive camber throughout the bump stroke.



Unfortunately I wont have an apples to apples comparison on the track I'm going to this Sunday as I didn't have the ball joint then and thus was only running -1.8

The main thing I'm looking out for is if the chassis oscillating bouncing is reduced during hard cornering by the higher spring rates. It appears to reduce it by 50% from Spoon/Tsuchiya's video. Will definitely report back!

I'm also interested if the Spoon springs rub on track.

You talk about the oscillations, wouldn't running in a softer mode help that?

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I'm also interested if the Spoon springs rub on track.

You talk about the oscillations, wouldn't running in a softer mode help that?

The oscillations are occuring due to the damping rate being too agressive, and it is exasperated by the spring rates being on the soft side.

So the higher spring rates of the Spoon springs should help support the suspension stroke and reduce the oscillations. Running in comfort indeed does help tremendously - but doesn't completely resolve it.

 

[BigBird]

The oscillations are occuring due to the damping rate being too agressive, and it is exasperated by the spring rates being on the soft side.

So the higher spring rates of the Spoon springs should help support the suspension stroke and reduce the oscillations. Running in comfort indeed does help tremendously - but doesn't completely resolve it.

wondering if the tuning of the ITS and using their controller is the better move

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

wondering if the tuning of the ITS and using their controller is the better move

Something I would LOVE to try!

 

[mmdct]

this conversation has gotten very technical but i think the takeaway is different ball joints will provide more camber with hardrace as the better choice.

i definitely need more camber! i pulled the pins and had the toe aligned after my first track day. five track days later with rotations front to rear and side-to-side after every event, plus close attention to tire temps, i am disappointed with shoulder wear. i expected better!

SO, please confirm that hardrace is a good choice for a one-and-done solution without anything else like lowering springs and coilovers. i am not looking for optimum , just something that will reduce shoulder wear, increase camber, and keep the car safe and stable.

i am especially interested in confirmation that a hardrace install works (i think that was stated above) because a seriously modded fk8 owner told me "don't change the ball joints because they are not easy to remove without damage." that scares me, but i think this group has better fl5 evidence.

please confirm. thank you

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