Question about changing brake fluid

[Leonidas I]

Hello friends,

My car says I need to change brake/clutch fluid so I plan on servicing it this upcoming wkn. Can anyone give me some tips/recommendations for the process and what products I'll need? I found this from a YT video and it seems like it's worth buying.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F9XHVKA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
I do drive with some purpose so do I need to buy DOT 4 or should I just stay with 3?

Thanks in advance!

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[jdezee]

Really simple job. Get the vehicle up on 4 jack stands and take all 4 wheels off so you have access to all 4 corners.

if you want to bleed by yourself then you will need a system in which to do it. A form of power bleeder. I personally use the motive power bleeder, have had it for years and just buy the adapters I need for each vehicle.

https://www.motiveproducts.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqQ-dFtBgycoKksBn4R3wwgBRcnGRY8AI9y7gNYkj0fQjnQNJ_P

I used this Honda adapter and made my own house to connect to the power bleeder with a universal hose kit from motive.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYXAXS5?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_3

Then follow the process of bleeding. Which appears to be to start at the driver front, then passenger front, the passenger rear, then driver rear, then actuate the parking brake 5 times, then re-bleed the rears. I believe this is from the manual.

It an odd procedure as I am always use to starting as far away from the master, ie pass rear and then working my way to the closest wheel. Honestly I think if you bleed properly you will be fine in any procedure.

@PointByPatrol has a great post and video, FYI if your not subscribed to his Youtube I recommend it. He is a great content creator for this platform. here is the link to his post and video.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/how-to-bleeding-the-brakes.53055/

Fluid can be a debate in its own, use the best fluid you can. I would personally recommend Castrol react SRF if you are ok changing it a minimum once a year.

I have also used ATE Type 200 in many other road vehicles in the past.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...CFqMAL6KHB2oKrsOou_0HauZOBREoHEwaAnszEALw_wcB

There will many much smarter and more informed than me to give details on the different brake fluid which makes one fluid better than the other. It needs to handle heat as best as possible and have a boiling point that will work for your purposes. Use of the vehicle may make a difference. A track only car will have different fluid needs than the daily driver.

The biggest piece of advice I would give for someone new trying this is don't over tighten the bleeder screw on the calipers. You will snap it off in the caliper and then the job just escalated.

 

[AZCWTypeR]

Suction out the master cylinder fluid and replace with new prior to bleeding, otherwise the above summary looks good.

I've used a Mityvac system for years. My Mityvac container is smaller than the master cylinder, so I just refill the master cylinder after each draw.

I've read DOT3 holds up better in damp environments vs. DOT4 having a higher boiling point. I'm not tracking, so I prefer DOT3.

 

[jdezee]

Suction out the master cylinder fluid and replace with new prior to bleeding, otherwise the above summary looks good.

I've used a Mityvac system for years. My Mityvac container is smaller than the master cylinder, so I just refill the master cylinder after each draw.

I've read DOT3 holds up better in damp environments vs. DOT4 having a higher boiling point. I'm not tracking, so I prefer DOT3.

Correct, I forgot you need to get yourself a cheap turkey baster if you dont have a fluid vac system to suck the master clean.

 

[Spart]

Fluid can be a debate in its own, use the best fluid you can. I would personally recommend Castrol react SRF if you are ok changing it a minimum once a year.

So to start this debate up, I'd also recommend Castrol SRF for certain applications but not changing it a minimum of once a year on a street-driven car.

Castrol's recommendation for SRF is 18 months. However, Catrol's recommendation is based on the intended use of SRF, which is racing. It should be noted that the wet boiling point of SRF is higher than the dry boiling point of the OEM DOT 3 fluid that comes in these cars. So at worst, it's better than the OEM fluid at it's best.

I left SRF in my GT350 for almost three years straight one time and never boiled it, even on track. It was better than the Motorcraft DOT4 fluid that came in the car, which gave me a soft pedal the very first time I tracked it (was probably wet enough that it needed a change, in fairness.) Note that I don't recommend this for a track-driven car, I probably should have done a bleed every year.

So if OP isn't tracking the car, SRF will last a good long while. And if he is, he can probably just flush once a year.

Something to be aware of with SRF specifically is that mixing it with other fluids is a problem. SRF is hydrophobic while most other DOT4 fluids are hygroscopic, so any moisture in the system will migrate to a pocket of whatever old DOT4 and become a problem. So your first flush with SRF needs to be *really* thorough, including the ABS, MC, and clutch. This will make a switch to SRF expensive, since you may need 3-4 liters in order to get all of the old fluid out. I have searched but not found any info on how to activate the ABS in a service mode on these cars. The service manual only mentions cycling the parking brake five times, nothing about how to flush the ABS. You might be stuck finding a way to force the ABS to cycle (Ice? Snow? Gravel?)

If you're going to change the fluid "a minimum of once a year" - why not use something like Motul RBF660? It has a slightly higher dry boiling point than SRF at the expense of less longevity (over 100°F lower wet boiling point) and it's a bit cheaper than the Castrol SRF. It also doesn't present the same issue with fluid mixing.

Something else to note is that some of these fluids, even 100% properly bled, will not give you the firmest pedal. Compressibility is a variable, and SRF, RBF660, and others are not optimized for the firmest possible pedal feel.

If you live somewhere that it regularly gets below 0°F outside, you may also want to consider low temperature viscosity. It will affect the clutch more than the brakes. You may wish to specifically use a "low viscosity" DOT 4 if this affects you. For example, the viscosity of Motul DOT 4 LV is 675 mm²/s (cST) at -40°, whereas the viscosity of SRF is 1200 mm²/s (cSt) at -40°.

TL;DR: SRF's advantage over other high performance brake fluids is longevity at the expense of expense (ha) as well as pedal feel, low temperature performance, and fluid compatibility.

To answer OP's other original question: get the Motive bleeder that @jdezee recommended and a Honda-specific cap. I have one too and it works fantastic. Be aware that merely using the Motive bleeder won't flush the MC, you should also push the brake pedal to the floor with a bleed valve cracked open, then close the bleed valve and release the pedal in order to expel old fluid from the MC and draw new fluid in.

 

[Leonidas I]

So to start this debate up, I'd also recommend Castrol SRF for certain applications but not changing it a minimum of once a year on a street-driven car.

Castrol's recommendation for SRF is 18 months. However, Catrol's recommendation is based on the intended use of SRF, which is racing. It should be noted that the wet boiling point of SRF is higher than the dry boiling point of the OEM DOT 3 fluid that comes in these cars. So at worst, it's better than the OEM fluid at it's best.

I left SRF in my GT350 for almost three years straight one time and never boiled it, even on track. It was better than the Motorcraft DOT4 fluid that came in the car, which gave me a soft pedal the very first time I tracked it (was probably wet enough that it needed a change, in fairness.) Note that I don't recommend this for a track-driven car, I probably should have done a bleed every year.

So if OP isn't tracking the car, SRF will last a good long while. And if he is, he can probably just flush once a year.

Something to be aware of with SRF specifically is that mixing it with other fluids is a problem. SRF is hydrophobic while most other DOT4 fluids are hygroscopic, so any moisture in the system will migrate to a pocket of whatever old DOT4 and become a problem. So your first flush with SRF needs to be *really* thorough, including the ABS, MC, and clutch. This will make a switch to SRF expensive, since you may need 3-4 liters in order to get all of the old fluid out. I have searched but not found any info on how to activate the ABS in a service mode on these cars. The service manual only mentions cycling the parking brake five times, nothing about how to flush the ABS. You might be stuck finding a way to force the ABS to cycle (Ice? Snow? Gravel?)

If you're going to change the fluid "a minimum of once a year" - why not use something like Motul RBF660? It has a slightly higher dry boiling point than SRF at the expense of less longevity (over 100°F lower wet boiling point) and it's a bit cheaper than the Castrol SRF. It also doesn't present the same issue with fluid mixing.

Something else to note is that some of these fluids, even 100% properly bled, will not give you the firmest pedal. Compressibility is a variable, and SRF, RBF660, and others are not optimized for the firmest possible pedal feel.

If you live somewhere that it regularly gets below 0°F outside, you may also want to consider low temperature viscosity. It will affect the clutch more than the brakes. You may wish to specifically use a "low viscosity" DOT 4 if this affects you. For example, the viscosity of Motul DOT 4 LV is 675 mm²/s (cST) at -40°, whereas the viscosity of SRF is 1200 mm²/s (cSt) at -40°.

TL;DR: SRF's advantage over other high performance brake fluids is longevity at the expense of expense (ha) as well as pedal feel, low temperature performance, and fluid compatibility.

To answer OP's other original question: get the Motive bleeder that @jdezee recommended and a Honda-specific cap. I have one too and it works fantastic. Be aware that merely using the Motive bleeder won't flush the MC, you should also push the brake pedal to the floor with a bleed valve cracked open, then close the bleed valve and release the pedal in order to expel old fluid from the MC and draw new fluid in.

Wow thank you for the detailed response! I do not track the car, it's my daily. I do drive quite spirited though.

I'm currently not able to spend a ton so would Honda DOT4 be okay to use now and maybe go to something a little more performance based later on down the road?

How many oz of new fluid should I be purchasing? Seems like most are sold in 12oz bottles.

It does get below freezing for a little while but usually never sustained more than a few days.

 

[Leonidas I]

Really simple job. Get the vehicle up on 4 jack stands and take all 4 wheels off so you have access to all 4 corners.

if you want to bleed by yourself then you will need a system in which to do it. A form of power bleeder. I personally use the motive power bleeder, have had it for years and just buy the adapters I need for each vehicle.

https://www.motiveproducts.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqQ-dFtBgycoKksBn4R3wwgBRcnGRY8AI9y7gNYkj0fQjnQNJ_P

I used this Honda adapter and made my own house to connect to the power bleeder with a universal hose kit from motive.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYXAXS5?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_3

Then follow the process of bleeding. Which appears to be to start at the driver front, then passenger front, the passenger rear, then driver rear, then actuate the parking brake 5 times, then re-bleed the rears. I believe this is from the manual.

It an odd procedure as I am always use to starting as far away from the master, ie pass rear and then working my way to the closest wheel. Honestly I think if you bleed properly you will be fine in any procedure.

@PointByPatrol has a great post and video, FYI if your not subscribed to his Youtube I recommend it. He is a great content creator for this platform. here is the link to his post and video.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/how-to-bleeding-the-brakes.53055/

Fluid can be a debate in its own, use the best fluid you can. I would personally recommend Castrol react SRF if you are ok changing it a minimum once a year.

I have also used ATE Type 200 in many other road vehicles in the past.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...CFqMAL6KHB2oKrsOou_0HauZOBREoHEwaAnszEALw_wcB

There will many much smarter and more informed than me to give details on the different brake fluid which makes one fluid better than the other. It needs to handle heat as best as possible and have a boiling point that will work for your purposes. Use of the vehicle may make a difference. A track only car will have different fluid needs than the daily driver.

The biggest piece of advice I would give for someone new trying this is don't over tighten the bleeder screw on the calipers. You will snap it off in the caliper and then the job just escalated.

I really appreciate your wisdom and links! Thanks for sharing and helping me understand what I need to do. I'll be sure to checkout Point's YT video.

 

[Spart]

Wow thank you for the detailed response! I do not track the car, it's my daily. I do drive quite spirited though.

I'm currently not able to spend a ton so would Honda DOT4 be okay to use now and maybe go to something a little more performance based later on down the road?

How many oz of new fluid should I be purchasing? Seems like most are sold in 12oz bottles.

It does get below freezing for a little while but usually never sustained more than a few days.

If you're not tracking the car, honestly any DOT4 or DOT3 will do.

The difference in boiling points remains with the higher-end fluids, but boiling brakes is something extraordinarily hard to achieve in street driving outside of coming down a mountain pass with no engine braking.

This is a relatively lightweight car with relatively large brakes. It has a ton of heat capacity that goes unused in day to day driving.

And if you do find yourself on mountain passes, you're in a manual car, go down the mountain in a lower gear and save your brakes. The last time I was in the mountains I barely used my brakes.

The cheaper the fluid it is, the less it hurts to buy extra to keep on hand. What really sucks is having everything setup to bleed (car on jackstands, wheels off, power bleeder installed) and run out of fluid.

If your existing fluid hasn't given you trouble, consider sticking with DOT3. Generally speaking, it has better longevity than DOT4.

I'm going to delete my CDV and CMC damper soon, and I'm just using OEM Honda DOT3. Unless I change my mind about tracking this car, that's probably all I will ever use in it. If I do decide to track it, it will get Castrol SRF.

 

[AZCWTypeR]

For a full brake system bleed, I usually buy a quart. The left front generally takes the most volume before running clean, then less as you go around.

 

[Nanook]

If your existing fluid hasn't given you trouble, consider sticking with DOT3. Generally speaking, it has better longevity than DOT4.

Mainly due to the fact that DOT4 is more hydroscopic than DOT3. Or in other words, DOT4 really likes water which is one the main reasons you have to replace brake fluid.

 

[Nanook]

Then follow the process of bleeding. Which appears to be to start at the driver front, then passenger front, the passenger rear, then driver rear, then actuate the parking brake 5 times, then re-bleed the rears. I believe this is from the manual.

It an odd procedure as I am always use to starting as far away from the master, ie pass rear and then working my way to the closest wheel. Honestly I think if you bleed properly you will be fine in any procedure.

I think the bleed order is:

1. Front Left (driver’s side front)
2. Rear Right (passenger’s side rear)
3. Front Right (passenger’s side front)
4. Rear Left (driver’s side rear)

 

[PNEUMA]

Mainly due to the fact that DOT4 is more hydroscopic than DOT3. Or in other words, DOT4 really likes water which is one the main reasons you have to replace brake fluid.

It’s hyGroscopic, not hyDroscopic.
Two completely different things.

 

[Nanook]

It’s hyGroscopic, not hyDroscopic.
Two completely different things.

Typo…my bad. Thanks

 

[Leonidas I]

Mainly due to the fact that DOT4 is more hydroscopic than DOT3. Or in other words, DOT4 really likes water which is one the main reasons you have to replace brake fluid.

Does it matter more/less if it's a manual transmission? I know it's involved with that but not to what extent... I

 

[Nanook]

Does it matter more/less if it's a manual transmission? I know it's involved with that but not to what extent... I

Does not matter at all.

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