New to CTR - impressions log. What do I need to know?

[TheFactor]

@Torsion Great review from your personal experience
I’ve had mine for a little over a year with a whopping 2400 miles lol. Basically just a pleasure car and being retired relatively early and having a second car a little CRV for my trips to Costco and Home Depot the danger zone
My FL5 is strictly for pleasure trips down the coast and I like live close within a mile . Recently took to a drive To Ortega highway for some twistie bits and the car was amazing to say the least . I knew it felt good but wow when I pushed it the response was like that’s all you got ? Definitely makes you feel like a better driver than you really are “ in my situation “ lol. .
I’m use to muscle cars and 1/4 miles so this is a different flavor of excitement and passion. Although did a lot of road course track days on a Gixxer 1000r and handful of other crotch rockets but it’s definitely different in a car when pushing it in turns.
This FL5 is impressive !

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[Nanook]

What are people doing for sound deadening? I am wanting to improve my audio

There are a couple of folks on here that have gone deep deep into sound deadening. I bought Dynamat and put it in the trunk. I need to do doors, but I’ve not done them yet. Did all that in my FK8 and it was fabulous.

Sound Deadening Project.

 

[Nanook]

I<snip>
I'm in my late 50s, which I imagine is on the older end for a CTR owner, but what can I say? - I like cars, and I like the CTR in particular!
<snip>

Right there with you, and according to the “how old are CTR owners“ thread, you and i are about average. One owner said they were 78!!!

age post

 

[TheFactor]

Right there with you, and according to the “how old are CTR owners“ thread, you and i are about average. One owner said they were 78!!!

age post

You youngsters

 

[TheFactor]

There are a couple of folks on here that have gone deep deep into sound deadening. I bought Dynamat and put it in the trunk. I need to do doors, but I’ve not done them yet. Did all that in my FK8 and it was fabulous.

Sound Deadening Project.

I hit the gas and or turn up the radio best sound deadening on the market

 

[zumbooruk]

Right there with you, and according to the “how old are CTR owners“ thread, you and i are about average. One owner said they were 78!!!

age post

I thought that at 60 I’d be one of the older ones…

 

[TheFactor]

I thought that at 60 I’d be one of the older ones…

Nope 62 years young here

 

[optronix]

The demographics for these cars are very interesting. There are the "kids" i.e., 20- or even 30-somethings that are buying their first "nice" new car, there are seasoned enthusiasts like myself (although fortunately still a ways off from my 60s...) who've had a good number of cars and have landed on this platform as a "do everything/bargain" alternative to much more expensive dedicated sports cars they've owned in the past, and there are the wealthy owners that have them as their daily alternative to their stable of GT P cars, McLarens, and Ferraris.

I might as well make this an impressions thread also, and have changed the title accordingly.

My experience with cars over the past decade is mostly with Porsches (including several GT cars), and I've done about 250 track days.

I'm in my late 50s, which I imagine is on the older end for a CTR owner, but what can I say? - I like cars, and I like the CTR in particular!

I'm now at 736 miles on the car. I took it to work today, and wound up taking a 30-mile detour coming home because the car is so much fun to drive. It really feels to me a lot like a hot hatch designed by the Porsche GT division, and in particular the dynamics and brake feel most resemble the 992 GT3.

Despite being 'only' 315 hp max, from 0 to ~5k rpm, the torque and therefore hp are actually more than a 718 Boxster GTS 4.0 or a GT4 RS, so the CTR feels punchier than those cars up to 5k, and the Porsches really need to be wrung out to feel faster, which often isn't feasible on public roads. So the CTR feels comparable to a 400-500 hp NA car on the road (on the track, the Porsches will feel much more powerful). The engine seems happiest at mid revs, so that's where I usually keep it and I haven't run it out to redline much even after completing break in (and I hate the feeling of bouncing off the rev limiter).

The gearing of the CTR feels fairly short and tightly spaced, so I find myself in 6th gear at highway cruising speeds, but the car still has decent acceleration in 6th gear.

I know some people have used the damping algorithms of the Integra Type S on the CTR, but I like the damping of the CTR the way it is. It's reasonably comfortable in comfort mode, and I like the body control in +R mode. Yes, the car does tend to bounce on some bumpy roads, but it doesn't really lose grip or traction, and I actually find the bouncing kind of entertaining.

Overall, with the PS4S tires, the grip level is high, and feels just as high as some other cars I've run with PS4S tires.

I find that the car really wants trailbraking to turn in, and I'm learning to trust that the back of the car will hold even with substantial trailbraking. Seems that the car needs to be near to the limit or thrown in to get the back of the car to move. This is unlike the Elantra N, which likes to wag its tail more (I love the Elantra N, and driving my friend's for a week is what made me explore getting a FWD car).

I really like the shifter feel, it seems as good as, or better than, every other manual car I've driven. I've been letting it auto-blip, but will eventually try turning that off and heel-toeing it.

The tech in the car is good, in some ways better than Porsches.

As a former serial P car guy myself, I agree with most of your assessment. I will caveat that I have an Integra Type S, but I was in the market for an FL5 initially while I still had my 718 GTS 4.0 (there's a thread on here about it somewhere), and just couldn't come to grips with paying a markup and landed on the DE5. I still view them as essentially the same car.

Where I think I'll point out that it doesn't QUITE satisfy the P car itch is in the "soul" department. I know that's such a cop out; let me reference an intangible metric so I don't have to actually argue an objective point, right? But really, after almost 2 years and a hair over 10k miles, that feels like an apt way to describe the gap between the FL5/DE5 and a Porsche. Not to say that this platform doesn't have soul, it has all those "intangibles" that one could describe as soul in spades... but just not quite as much as a Porsche! That's all I'm saying.

And depending on what Porsche you're referencing, I'd even say that the FL5 has more... I'm still quite torn on my overall thoughts of the 2.5T 718 GTS I had. I loved the car, but it sounded like a Subaru, and a sewing machine at idle. That was tough to get past, especially when considering that car's $103k MSRP but I digress...

It did take a good amount of time for that logic to set in. I truly could say I didn't miss any of my past Porsches for at least a year and a half after buying my Integra... but recently some pics of my past cars have popped up in my timelines and have got me truly nostalgic... and the fact I just spent the past weekend at a PCA autocross event didn't help either.

I miss the sound, I miss the presence, the "aura" of a Porsche. (I miss placing within the top 10 on a given day at an autocross event even on PS4S because the PDK is a cheat code)... But I don't miss the cost, or the external perception. I can drive this car anywhere and not have to worry about extra attention, or god forbid what a client might think. And I love the net new ability (and honestly primary driving factor of considering this platform in the first place...) of being able to fit my giant dog in the back when I want to- without having the added expense of a whole other car like I was doing with the Porsches. And without having to worry about if he marks up the seats with his claws, or gets slobber on the leather trim panels.

So TL;DR, saying it's a 4-door designed by the Porsche GT department really isn't too much of a stretch, if you take into account the obvious compromises that would have to take place if they also had to fit it within a $50k MSRP budget. It is truly the best of breed for a fast, fun to drive sports car with 4 doors... but I'll be back in the market for an augmentation soon, and another Porsche will probably be at the top of the list.

 

[Nanook]

Can’t speak to a Porsche, but I can speak to the Integra Type-S. Wife really wanted something a bit more posh than the Type-R, so we drove a couple of them. It ain’t the FL5. Not by a long shot. They have a lot of the same DNA, but I much prefer the FL5. The seats in the DE5 were awful. As far as markup, the DE5 isn’t moving like the FL5, so you can get them under MSRP. I could have bought one about $3.5k under MSRP. Probably more if I’d been willing to haggle. We did like some of the gimmicks they DE5 had, but I would argue the FL5 feels more posh.

 

[optronix]

Can’t speak to a Porsche, but I can speak to the Integra Type-S. Wife really wanted something a bit more posh than the Type-R, so we drove a couple of them. It ain’t the FL5. Not by a long shot. They have a lot of the same DNA, but I much prefer the FL5. The seats in the DE5 were awful. As far as markup, the DE5 isn’t moving like the FL5, so you can get them under MSRP. I could have bought one about $3.5k under MSRP. Probably more if I’d been willing to haggle. We did like some of the gimmicks they DE5 had, but I would argue the FL5 feels more posh.

You just couldn't resist could you. Well, neither can I. Let's spend the morning being pedantic then. I've got the time.

People like to justify their purchases, I get it. It's annoying that it keeps happening but I get it. I'd say similar things vs the Type R; I wanted one initially and was willing to pay a moderate markup but then the Type S was released and then there was zero chance of that happening. "Not by a long shot." The DE5 fits my use case better and subjectively I like the way it looks more, but it's not like I don't like the FL5. To me, that would be a pretty egregious fallacy because they're fundamentally the same car. It's less about "DNA" and more about physically identical running gear. Literally every difference comes down to subjectivity. Like, "the seats are awful". That's a subjective statement. And, what exactly does "posh" even mean in this context? I don't think either of these cars has much "posh" about them, but clearly you and your wife do... so what's your actual point here?

Maybe it's this thing you bring up around MSRP. I'm not sure where your data comes from as far as "not moving like the FL5", but you're not wrong that you can get them at discounts. You think it's because they're "not moving"; I think it's just stubborn dealers who are used to selling FL5s for $10-15k over as precedent and gullible buyers who continue to fall for it. Either of us could be correct based on the given evidence, which is... nothing but our own interpretations. I can at least offer one metric with semi-reliable data.

https://www.motoringobsession.com/stock/civic-type-r

I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of this data, but this tracker site has been around for at least as long as I've been in the market, which was ~2 years ago almost exactly. I believe it pulls from public APIs from Honda websites, but anything regarding markups is user-reported (i.e., unreliable). It's a starting point for actual discussion rather than just two random people sharing opinions.

Just as with any data, there are different stories to be told based on how you interpret it. But to me, just looking at the most basic numbers as in vehicle inventory, there are generally around 6x more FL5s than DE5s at any given time. Again, you can interpret that in multiple ways because what I don't have is other important context like overall volume of sales, dwell time in dealer inventory, transaction price, etc., so I can't come to any reasonable conclusion on things like "the DE5 isn't moving like the FL5"... like, is the reason there are 6x more units on dealer lots because the demand is 6x higher? Or one could argue that there are 6x less DE5s on dealer lots because they're selling 6x faster? Context is important when it comes to making an accurate assessment. Unless you have something else up your sleeve, I'd say we're both idiots if we try to assert one point over the other with the available context window, would you agree?

But one thing that the inventory numbers do offer is the implication that no one should be paying over MSRP for an FL5. If you are, you could have at least tried 300 other units before arriving at the conclusion you just had to part with that extra cash for the privilege of buying a car from that dealership.

So where does that leave us? A pretty obvious assessment from my perspective is that FL5 owners are more inclined to pay a markup, so that leads me to believe that they're more inclined to think their cars are more "special", even compared to an essentially identical car.

And that will continue to irritate me and inspire cathartic posts like this one.

 

[Clark_Kent]

You just couldn't resist could you. Well, neither can I. Let's spend the morning being pedantic then. I've got the time.

People like to justify their purchases, I get it. It's annoying that it keeps happening but I get it. I'd say similar things vs the Type R; I wanted one initially and was willing to pay a moderate markup but then the Type S was released and then there was zero chance of that happening. "Not by a long shot." The DE5 fits my use case better and subjectively I like the way it looks more, but it's not like I don't like the FL5. To me, that would be a pretty egregious fallacy because they're fundamentally the same car. It's less about "DNA" and more about physically identical running gear. Literally every difference comes down to subjectivity. Like, "the seats are awful". That's a subjective statement. And, what exactly does "posh" even mean in this context? I don't think either of these cars has much "posh" about them, but clearly you and your wife do... so what's your actual point here?

Maybe it's this thing you bring up around MSRP. I'm not sure where your data comes from as far as "not moving like the FL5", but you're not wrong that you can get them at discounts. You think it's because they're "not moving"; I think it's just stubborn dealers who are used to selling FL5s for $10-15k over as precedent and gullible buyers who continue to fall for it. Either of us could be correct based on the given evidence, which is... nothing but our own interpretations. I can at least offer one metric with semi-reliable data.

https://www.motoringobsession.com/stock/civic-type-r

I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of this data, but this tracker site has been around for at least as long as I've been in the market, which was ~2 years ago almost exactly. I believe it pulls from public APIs from Honda websites, but anything regarding markups is user-reported (i.e., unreliable). It's a starting point for actual discussion rather than just two random people sharing opinions.

Just as with any data, there are different stories to be told based on how you interpret it. But to me, just looking at the most basic numbers as in vehicle inventory, there are generally around 6x more FL5s than DE5s at any given time. Again, you can interpret that in multiple ways because what I don't have is other important context like overall volume of sales, dwell time in dealer inventory, transaction price, etc., so I can't come to any reasonable conclusion on things like "the DE5 isn't moving like the FL5"... like, is the reason there are 6x more units on dealer lots because the demand is 6x higher? Or one could argue that there are 6x less DE5s on dealer lots because they're selling 6x faster? Context is important when it comes to making an accurate assessment. Unless you have something else up your sleeve, I'd say we're both idiots if we try to assert one point over the other with the available context window, would you agree?

But one thing that the inventory numbers do offer is the implication that no one should be paying over MSRP for an FL5. If you are, you could have at least tried 300 other units before arriving at the conclusion you just had to part with that extra cash for the privilege of buying a car from that dealership.

So where does that leave us? A pretty obvious assessment from my perspective is that FL5 owners are more inclined to pay a markup, so that leads me to believe that they're more inclined to think their cars are more "special", even compared to an essentially identical car.

And that will continue to irritate me and inspire cathartic posts like this one.

FWIW, that website and Steven Machett's that we all heavily relied on at some point are effectively defunct and have been for months. Apparently Honda changed the API endpoints and the complete and accurate dataset is no longer available and/or reliable.

You have Team FL5, Team DE5, and you have Team FL5/DE5. The reality is people are in their camps and I expect them to stay there. I also expect these camps to become more tribal as time passes and these cars are no longer in production.

 

[gxl]

I'm team FK8 but I browse these forums just out of curiosity

 

[Torsion]

FWIW, when I decided to shop for a fun FWD and/or hot hatch car, the Integra Type S wasn't even on my list.

Comparing the ITS and CTR, I wanted the car with the wing, racier seats and interior, less weight, stiffer suspension, iconic status, and lower cost as a bonus.

My options were quickly narrowed down to the CTR and Elantra N, and I went with the CTR because (a) my friend has an Elantra N I can drive, (b) the CTR oozes quality and engineering refinement, and (c) I wanted a manual car, and the shifter feel of the CTR is sublime.

If I was shopping for a car that was more of a daily driver and less of a 'fun car', I certainly would have at least test driven the Integra.

I still may get an Elantra N (DCT), in addition to the CTR, not to replace it. I think the two cars are different enough in their personalities to justify having both, and the price of the N is really a crazy bargain.

 

[Cueyo]

You just couldn't resist could you. Well, neither can I. Let's spend the morning being pedantic then. I've got the time.

People like to justify their purchases, I get it. It's annoying that it keeps happening but I get it. I'd say similar things vs the Type R; I wanted one initially and was willing to pay a moderate markup but then the Type S was released and then there was zero chance of that happening. "Not by a long shot." The DE5 fits my use case better and subjectively I like the way it looks more, but it's not like I don't like the FL5. To me, that would be a pretty egregious fallacy because they're fundamentally the same car. It's less about "DNA" and more about physically identical running gear. Literally every difference comes down to subjectivity. Like, "the seats are awful". That's a subjective statement. And, what exactly does "posh" even mean in this context? I don't think either of these cars has much "posh" about them, but clearly you and your wife do... so what's your actual point here?

Maybe it's this thing you bring up around MSRP. I'm not sure where your data comes from as far as "not moving like the FL5", but you're not wrong that you can get them at discounts. You think it's because they're "not moving"; I think it's just stubborn dealers who are used to selling FL5s for $10-15k over as precedent and gullible buyers who continue to fall for it. Either of us could be correct based on the given evidence, which is... nothing but our own interpretations. I can at least offer one metric with semi-reliable data.

https://www.motoringobsession.com/stock/civic-type-r

I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of this data, but this tracker site has been around for at least as long as I've been in the market, which was ~2 years ago almost exactly. I believe it pulls from public APIs from Honda websites, but anything regarding markups is user-reported (i.e., unreliable). It's a starting point for actual discussion rather than just two random people sharing opinions.

Just as with any data, there are different stories to be told based on how you interpret it. But to me, just looking at the most basic numbers as in vehicle inventory, there are generally around 6x more FL5s than DE5s at any given time. Again, you can interpret that in multiple ways because what I don't have is other important context like overall volume of sales, dwell time in dealer inventory, transaction price, etc., so I can't come to any reasonable conclusion on things like "the DE5 isn't moving like the FL5"... like, is the reason there are 6x more units on dealer lots because the demand is 6x higher? Or one could argue that there are 6x less DE5s on dealer lots because they're selling 6x faster? Context is important when it comes to making an accurate assessment. Unless you have something else up your sleeve, I'd say we're both idiots if we try to assert one point over the other with the available context window, would you agree?

But one thing that the inventory numbers do offer is the implication that no one should be paying over MSRP for an FL5. If you are, you could have at least tried 300 other units before arriving at the conclusion you just had to part with that extra cash for the privilege of buying a car from that dealership.

So where does that leave us? A pretty obvious assessment from my perspective is that FL5 owners are more inclined to pay a markup, so that leads me to believe that they're more inclined to think their cars are more "special", even compared to an essentially identical car.

And that will continue to irritate me and inspire cathartic posts like this one.

I think for most people the difference is one car is boy racer and the other is boy racer, but trying really hard to act mature. Exact same car underneath, but the type R is trying real hard to say "I'm a track car", while the de5 is trying real hard to say "I'm refined". If it weren't for the extra money I might've bought a de5 (mostly for the electronic seats lol), but why do that when I can pay less for the same driving experience.

 

[Cueyo]

FWIW, when I decided to shop for a fun FWD and/or hot hatch car, the Integra Type S wasn't even on my list.

Comparing the ITS and CTR, I wanted the car with the wing, racier seats and interior, less weight, stiffer suspension, iconic status, and lower cost as a bonus.

My options were quickly narrowed down to the CTR and Elantra N, and I went with the CTR because (a) my friend has an Elantra N I can drive, (b) the CTR oozes quality and engineering refinement, and (c) I wanted a manual car, and the shifter feel of the CTR is sublime.

If I was shopping for a car that was more of a daily driver and less of a 'fun car', I certainly would have at least test driven the Integra.

I still may get an Elantra N (DCT), in addition to the CTR, not to replace it. I think the two cars are different enough in their personalities to justify having both, and the price of the N is really a crazy bargain.

And that's the thing, unless you know that the cars are the same, the FL5 and DE5 just don't attract the same audience. If I was just some random rich guy off the street who wanted a sporty manual, why would I go to Honda? My poor uncle drives a Honda, I want an Acura.

The subdued design and creature comforts are also a major difference that would make someone choose the Acura over the Honda.

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