Suspension | Handling advice please

[zumbooruk]

My FL5 is the first car I ever modded

Obviously, I have very little experience modding, for example, I just learned about the importance of unsprung weight...

I do not plan to race or track, but I do drive "enthusiastically".

I'd be the first to admit that I am not a very good driver, I drive like an ape, not smooth, no finesse, but I am having a blast driving my FL5

I have done all the work myself and I really enjoy and proud of it, especially since I am a software guy and this is hardware, which I always found "challenging"

So far I have installed PRL rear motor mount (but considering the Cobb RMM), initially a DE5 and now DSC suspension controller, Cobb intake, Cobb AccessPort (with custom tune by @JST Performance), PRL coolant expansion tank, WOT/HPT cooling tray, Hybrid Racing short throw shifter and cable bushings (still in the "to be installed" box: Radium dual catch cans, 27Won Snorkel, 41.22 kill switch with the optional remote)

I am extremely happy with the noticeable increased performance of the Cobb intake and @JST Performance tune, not looking for more power for now, so I am shifting my attention to suspension, which I know nothing about, seeking advice

These are the mods I am contemplating, in no particular order:

lightweight LiFePO4 battery for 30lb savings at the front (when OEM battery dies, or sooner)

MITA FKS wheels in 18x9.5 +60 (I don't want to mess with OEM geometry) with Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02 265/35R18 (I want a bit more sidewall) for about 11lb saving per corner or about 45lb total, though I am also considering 275/35R18 for even bit more sidewall. (when the OEM tires wear out in another 9-10k miles)

RV6 Swaybar and endlinks

Powerflex wishbone front anti lift and rear bushing

Wunderladen upper motor mounts, transmission side and the just announced passenger side

Spoon stiff plate (or similar bracing)

Rigid collars

Mugen performance dampers

EBC Yellowstuff DP41210R DP42402R (when OEM pads wear out)


anything else I should be considering? I do not want to lower the car, as is I scrape the front every time I go down my steep driveway.

anything above that I should not be considering, or a better option?

what about optimal alignment? keep at OEM? if not, what would you recommend?

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[optronix]

Seems like a lot of "feel mods". I'd argue absolutely none are "necessary"; but some folks would claim they're each beneficial in their own way.

I think one rule with this platform you're not violating- don't lower the car if you don't want to enter the tail-chasing effort of "recovering" some of the compromises that lowering brings. Otherwise I don't see anything on your list that is ruinous...

But I'll challenge you on the wheel offset. You say you don't want to alter the suspension geometry... but you're planning on swapping the sway bar. That will alter the geometry a hell of a lot more than wheel offset. I think early on in this platform's life cycle people started clamoring about scrub radius and it left the impression that the car is ruined if you change the offset by a few millimeters. I was one of the people who spent some time down this rathole when I first bought this car. I've gone through a few sets of wheels and tires now and feel that I have enough evidence to arrive at the conclusion that the concern is very much overinflated. Does it change something? Sure. Is it meaningful? The answer will likely depend on how sensitive you are to subjectivity. Personally, I swap between 3 sets of wheels (PS4S summer +45 - street, DWS06 all season +60 - winter, RE-71RZ 200TW +40- shenanigans), adjust within a few minutes of driving and don't notice it any more. It affects steering and torque steer, but I can't honestly say it's net positive or net negative. It's different. You adjust and continue to enjoy the car... but with wheels that are more aligned to the fender and therefore aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Especially for a car that isn't taken to the limit, I just don't see how something like wheel offset should impact decision-making from a "don't want to mess with the suspension geometry" perspective... again, the sway bar is going to intentionally induce oversteer- I'd argue something you definitely do not need or even want on the street. I autocross the shit out of my car and I don't have a sway bar because I don't have a problem getting the rear to rotate... wheel offset should be the least of your concerns.

Last thought. You also are clearly self-aware of your own driving limitations. Why are you content with that? Nothing should stop you from seeking an entry-level track day experience. At a beginner pace on OEM-adjacent summer tires (i.e., PS4S, ECS02, etc.), the OEM brakes and fluid will easily hold up to whatever abuse you give it (*with the assumption your power mods didn't add like 50whp or something and you have a heavy foot). Another thing I don't really understand is why some folks insist they'll never take their car on a track. This is one of the most track-capable platforms you can buy; literally EVERYONE who owns one should take their car to the track, if not for the recreation, for the learning experience.

My .02.

 

[zumbooruk]

Seems like a lot of "feel mods". I'd argue absolutely none are "necessary"; but some folks would claim they're each beneficial in their own way.

I think one rule with this platform you're not violating- don't lower the car if you don't want to enter the tail-chasing effort of "recovering" some of the compromises that lowering brings. Otherwise I don't see anything on your list that is ruinous...

But I'll challenge you on the wheel offset. You say you don't want to alter the suspension geometry... but you're planning on swapping the sway bar. That will alter the geometry a hell of a lot more than wheel offset. I think early on in this platform's life cycle people started clamoring about scrub radius and it left the impression that the car is ruined if you change the offset by a few millimeters. I was one of the people who spent some time down this rathole when I first bought this car. I've gone through a few sets of wheels and tires now and feel that I have enough evidence to arrive at the conclusion that the concern is very much overinflated. Does it change something? Sure. Is it meaningful? The answer will likely depend on how sensitive you are to subjectivity. Personally, I swap between 3 sets of wheels (PS4S summer +45 - street, DWS06 all season +60 - winter, RE-71RZ 200TW +40- shenanigans), adjust within a few minutes of driving and don't notice it any more. It affects steering and torque steer, but I can't honestly say it's net positive or net negative. It's different. You adjust and continue to enjoy the car... but with wheels that are more aligned to the fender and therefore aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Especially for a car that isn't taken to the limit, I just don't see how something like wheel offset should impact decision-making from a "don't want to mess with the suspension geometry" perspective... again, the sway bar is going to intentionally induce oversteer- I'd argue something you definitely do not need or even want on the street. I autocross the shit out of my car and I don't have a sway bar because I don't have a problem getting the rear to rotate... wheel offset should be the least of your concerns.

Last thought. You also are clearly self-aware of your own driving limitations. Why are you content with that? Nothing should stop you from seeking an entry-level track day experience. At a beginner pace on OEM-adjacent summer tires (i.e., PS4S, ECS02, etc.), the OEM brakes and fluid will easily hold up to whatever abuse you give it (*with the assumption your power mods didn't add like 50whp or something and you have a heavy foot). Another thing I don't really understand is why some folks insist they'll never take their car on a track. This is one of the most track-capable platforms you can buy; literally EVERYONE who owns one should take their car to the track, if not for the recreation, for the learning experience.

My .02.

Thank you!

I didn't want to mess with the wheel offset and geometry, since I know less than nothing about it... I'll expand my search for lightweight wheels at +50 to +60.

I am not sure which post(s) I saw that mentioned that the best suspension improvement was a rear swaybar...

The RV6 swaybar has three positions. softest of which is 700 lbf/in (while OEM is about 550-600 lbf/in) which is the main reason I was looking at it, as it seems that it will not be too much over OEM, and I can increase if/as needed.

the other swaybar I looked at was Whiteline 22mm. it seems to be very highly regarded. two positions 650–670 lbf/in and the harder position near 780–805 lbf/in

I am not sure now why I opted for the RV6 over the whiteline, now that I am looking again at the stiffness ratings, Whiteline seems "better" less aggressive.

maybe because the RV6 comes with endlinks, so I thought it would be easier to get the set???

again, this is all research and evaluation. i.e. theory...

and we all know that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, while in practice there is.

being that I drive like an ape, I was looking for suspension mods that will make the car handle more predictably, and might allow me to recover from any mistakes I make.

I just did a quick search of user reports of the RV6 across several sources, and specifically attempted to find reports at the softest settings:

sharper turn-in, noticeably less understeer, and more precise, predictable handling without sudden oversteer. reduces the mild understeer. Turn-in becomes immediate, the car stays on line more faithfully, and steering feel becomes more precise. more nimble and neutral actually… You turn the wheel and the car follows like you’d expect. The bar does not transform the car into an oversteering machine on moderate settings, but it does shift the balance toward earlier rotation compared with stock understeer.


I've been toying with the idea of mild "entry-level" track days. but I was concerned about my abilities, rather lack thereof.

based on past experience with other sports, I suck. no fine motor control. not coordinated. I never seem to improve (I might give up too soon) but it seems that I have no ability to repeat or build muscle memory even after many many repetitions. even my handwriting sucks, I can write the same words multiple times and each one looks totally different...

I am also a very good worrier. I fret and worry about everything. I don't like to take risks. but I guess that if I take it easy on the track I should be fine.

I'll look for local track events. THANKS!

 

[optronix]

Thank you!

I didn't want to mess with the wheel offset and geometry, since I know less than nothing about it... I'll expand my search for lightweight wheels at +50 to +60.

I am not sure which post(s) I saw that mentioned that the best suspension improvement was a rear swaybar...

The RV6 swaybar has three positions. softest of which is 700 lbf/in (while OEM is about 550-600 lbf/in) which is the main reason I was looking at it, as it seems that it will not be too much over OEM, and I can increase if/as needed.

the other swaybar I looked at was Whiteline 22mm. it seems to be very highly regarded. two positions 650–670 lbf/in and the harder position near 780–805 lbf/in

I am not sure now why I opted for the RV6 over the whiteline, now that I am looking again at the stiffness ratings, Whiteline seems "better" less aggressive.

maybe because the RV6 comes with endlinks, so I thought it would be easier to get the set???

again, this is all research and evaluation. i.e. theory...

and we all know that in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, while in practice there is.

being that I drive like an ape, I was looking for suspension mods that will make the car handle more predictably, and might allow me to recover from any mistakes I make.

I just did a quick search of user reports of the RV6 across several sources, and specifically attempted to find reports at the softest settings:

sharper turn-in, noticeably less understeer, and more precise, predictable handling without sudden oversteer. reduces the mild understeer. Turn-in becomes immediate, the car stays on line more faithfully, and steering feel becomes more precise. more nimble and neutral actually… You turn the wheel and the car follows like you’d expect. The bar does not transform the car into an oversteering machine on moderate settings, but it does shift the balance toward earlier rotation compared with stock understeer.


I've been toying with the idea of mild "entry-level" track days. but I was concerned about my abilities, rather lack thereof.

based on past experience with other sports, I suck. no fine motor control. not coordinated. I never seem to improve (I might give up too soon) but it seems that I have no ability to repeat or build muscle memory even after many many repetitions. even my handwriting sucks, I can write the same words multiple times and each one looks totally different...

I am also a very good worrier. I fret and worry about everything. I don't like to take risks. but I guess that if I take it easy on the track I should be fine.

I'll look for local track events. THANKS!

A sway bar is not a bad thing, I was just suggesting that wheel offset alterations to the factory geometry is overblown. I think you'd like the sway bar but I would encourage you to get a better sense of how the car behaves at the "true limit" before making significant adjustments to the suspension. I think it's actually contrary to your perception- suspension mods can actually mask bad driving habits (maybe that is actually your point... but my point is that's a bad thing!). Better to learn "the hard way" with a mostly stock car. This car is very forgiving and approachable (and capable) just as it comes from the factory.

On the track stuff- It's a very good thing to be self-aware. But be mindful if you approach being overly critical of yourself. Even with the sports- you may not actually know if you truly "suck" or not. I can relate... when I first started playing basketball back in high school I genuinely did suck. But I had good friends that more or less forced me to play and guess what? I ended up not sucking nearly as badly after actually playing for a while. I wasn't really aware when I first started out that the guys I was playing with had been playing basically their whole lives, so obviously I had a lot of catching up to do. But once I got past the learning phase it became a lifelong hobby. Was I good enough to play in the NBA or even college ball? Hell no. But could I have fun "breaking ankles" at the local elementary school or rec league well into my 40s? Hell yes (until a tragic ACL injury and now I'm too scared to play but I digress).

My point is you shouldn't limit yourself. That said- it is understandable if you're uneasy; this is a motor vehicle operated at high speeds after all. But if you're safe to drive on public roads, you should absolutely be safe to drive in a legit High Performance Driver's Education (HPDE) scenario with a decent instructor.

Honestly I'd avoid the "Track Night in America" for your very first event though- they're designed to be very accessible... and they are... but arguably TOO accessible for a true first-timer. No instructor at all leaves too much to interpretation. Try to find an event that includes classroom and in-car instructing. Shouldn't be too hard to find. Folks on here should be able to provide some local recommendations.

And also, not trying to scare you after all the "selling" I just did- but you should deeply consider track insurance. Even the best drivers still get it routinely, because just like anything involving a motor vehicle, accidents can and do happen. Just best to have that peace of mind.

I hope you work it out, most folks come away from their first events as much better drivers and with wildly different perspectives.

 

[zymmer4]

My FL5 is the first car I ever modded

Obviously, I have very little experience modding, for example, I just learned about the importance of unsprung weight...

I do not plan to race or track, but I do drive "enthusiastically".

I'd be the first to admit that I am not a very good driver, I drive like an ape, not smooth, no finesse, but I am having a blast driving my FL5

I have done all the work myself and I really enjoy and proud of it, especially since I am a software guy and this is hardware, which I always found "challenging"

So far I have installed PRL rear motor mount (but considering the Cobb RMM), initially a DE5 and now DSC suspension controller, Cobb intake, Cobb AccessPort (with custom tune by @JST Performance), PRL coolant expansion tank, WOT/HPT cooling tray, Hybrid Racing short throw shifter and cable bushings (still in the "to be installed" box: Radium dual catch cans, 27Won Snorkel, 41.22 kill switch with the optional remote)

I am extremely happy with the noticeable increased performance of the Cobb intake and @JST Performance tune, not looking for more power for now, so I am shifting my attention to suspension, which I know nothing about, seeking advice

These are the mods I am contemplating, in no particular order:

lightweight LiFePO4 battery for 30lb savings at the front (when OEM battery dies, or sooner)

MITA FKS wheels in 18x9.5 +60 (I don't want to mess with OEM geometry) with Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02 265/35R18 (I want a bit more sidewall) for about 11lb saving per corner or about 45lb total, though I am also considering 275/35R18 for even bit more sidewall. (when the OEM tires wear out in another 9-10k miles)

RV6 Swaybar and endlinks

Powerflex wishbone front anti lift and rear bushing

Wunderladen upper motor mounts, transmission side and the just announced passenger side

Spoon stiff plate (or similar bracing)

Rigid collars

Mugen performance dampers

EBC Yellowstuff DP41210R DP42402R (when OEM pads wear out)


anything else I should be considering? I do not want to lower the car, as is I scrape the front every time I go down my steep driveway.

anything above that I should not be considering, or a better option?

what about optimal alignment? keep at OEM? if not, what would you recommend?

You say you drive "ape style". You are just spending $$$$$"to be kool"? Kind sir..you are going to tear that car in half when you go off the road with a high berm and lowside, then bounce and flip..A word to the wise(ape)..Spend a year or two learning to drive before the mods..The FL5 is a wicked fast street car as it comes. Be safe.

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