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KoukiVAB

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I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. Didn't they say DCT was too heavy for the type R?
Making it a baby NSX would be interesting and I'd like to see that happen, but the world isn't ready for a $60K+ MSRP Civic lol

Anyway, I know EVs are not that "eco friendly" at the moment, but let's not use that as an excuse to blindly defend ICE.
Like it or not, we're gonna have to go electric (or hydrogen) in the future. The issue is with the pacing, not the direction.
The pacing tho, is all wrong. The governments should get the infrastructure ready before pushing people to go EV.
Organizations should go after big factories and old diesel trucks before telling regular drivers to ditch ICE.
I'm all for EV but too much force will only result in more negative reactions.
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Tony503

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Or maybe they're alluding to a hybrid Integra Type S?
I was thinking this too, but an Acura executive last year said they're going to skip hybrids and go straight to EV's
 

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I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. Didn't they say DCT was too heavy for the type R?
Making it a baby NSX would be interesting and I'd like to see that happen, but the world isn't ready for a $60K+ MSRP Civic lol

Anyway, I know EVs are not that "eco friendly" at the moment, but let's not use that as an excuse to blindly defend ICE.
Like it or not, we're gonna have to go electric (or hydrogen) in the future. The issue is with the pacing, not the direction.
The pacing tho, is all wrong. The governments should get the infrastructure ready before pushing people to go EV.
Organizations should go after big factories and old diesel trucks before telling regular drivers to ditch ICE.
I'm all for EV but too much force will only result in more negative reactions.
EVs and environmental protections are all just business and money game after all lol.
 

Riko

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Honestly I dont think this is the last ICE Type R or ICE Honda.
as long as they sell cars in the US, thats a fact :rofl:

Jokes asside, I wouldn't mind the idea of a Hybrid Type R, not at all.....why not? its a win win (okay, it will bump up the price, but...)
- more power
- more efficient

Purists wont like the idea of a non pure ICE and the extra weight, but thats just backwards thinking when you will compensate it with more power and efficiency.
I do get naysayers that argue it might not be a manual though....

What can a car enthousiast have against more power and more efficiency?

The NSX is a prime example of how fun hybrids can be, no matter what naysayers say, even Italian exotic brands go hybrid (and full EV).

EVs and environmental protections are all just business and money game after all lol.
I sense scepticisme, but hate to break it to you, but so are fossil fuels and their respective petroleum companies for the last, 120+ years.... ;)

Fun fact, at the dawn of the car era, EV's were the first cars, but battery tech sucked back than as you can imagine, let alone for mass adoption,
Porsche their very first car was an EV.

And now that EVs are back to being a thing, thats a story you hear more and more of course....

So not long after the automobile got going, they discovered petroleum and you had Karl Benz + Henry Ford pushed towards mass production and the rest is history.
Everything that came afterwards towards battery or renewables, as you can imagine were silenced or shot down entirely by the by than ever so powerful Oil lobby...

But about batteries, arent car batteries no for +90% recyclable?
I better buy stocks in battery recycle companies than :rofl:

And I assume everybody know that a EV car, a car being pushed by an ELECTRIC MOTOR (battery powered or by hydrogen), is also +90% efficient, and a ICE isnt barely 40% efficient....:rolleyes:
Of course, who knew back than and who thinks about that kind of stuff when they here VTec kick in or hear their V8 or V10 exotic push red line huh.
 
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giger

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Thats a very common myth that is spread about EVs and its simply not true. The emissions are higher to produce an EV but they taper off because they do not produce emissions. It would only be a 25% increase in capacity from the power gird which can easily be increased. The grid has increased by 4% every year from 1960-2000. Also EVs can be used as energy storage for the grid.

You can be cynical and argue that EVs aren't much better for the environment, which you are not wrong technically because its impossible to completely eliminate the impact we have on the environment as humans living in a post industrial revolution world. However, it is wrong to suggest that the "environment isn't much better off electric." EVs have a lower carbon footprint than gasoline cars even when accounting for coal powered plants to charge them. Its fine if you don't like EVs, but dont spread misinformation please
There is a break even point for EVs, once you meet it the carbon footprint is significantly reduced - however, for many vehicles that is 50k miles +. The general consumer thinks they are doing a good thing by going green because manufacturers don't make CO2 production footprint info generally available. It is of course also cheaper to run.

Volvo analysed the CO2 footprint of the XC40 in both ICE & BEV. The results are crazy and many outlets didn't publish the findings. For that model the break even point of the EV was 47k-146k miles depending on how electricity was sourced. At that point they were unable to say how efficient the batteries would still be.

Crazy ay?!
 


Riko

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50k miles, you mean that one has to travel in a year I assume?
 

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50k miles, you mean that one has to travel in a year I assume?
It means during its lifetime. An EV needs to travel 50k miles (during its lifetime) in order to offset the initial production and operating electricity generation carbon footprint. After 50k miles, the EV’s carbon footprint (mainly from the grid) is significantly less than an ICE. Whereas an ICE will continue to output the same amount of CO2 (per year) during its lifetime.
 

giger

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On the XC40 above it is 47-146k miles, with the average being 84k if electricity is generated via a clean source, 146k miles if not.

I thought I'd published to the link to the PDF on the Volvo site but must have missed it off. It's a interesting read if you like finding out about this kinda stuff. For many countries that's big mileage, I appreciate in others it may not be.
https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/...electric-light/volvo-cars-LCA-report-xc40.pdf
 

Rhorn

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There is a break even point for EVs, once you meet it the carbon footprint is significantly reduced - however, for many vehicles that is 50k miles +. The general consumer thinks they are doing a good thing by going green because manufacturers don't make CO2 production footprint info generally available. It is of course also cheaper to run.

Volvo analysed the CO2 footprint of the XC40 in both ICE & BEV. The results are crazy and many outlets didn't publish the findings. For that model the break even point of the EV was 47k-146k miles depending on how electricity was sourced. At that point they were unable to say how efficient the batteries would still be.

Crazy ay?!
Right. What we are getting at is called the Life Cycle Assessment (LCA) which is basically an assessment of the environmental impact of a product or service over its life cycle. There was a large meta analysis that was just published a few months ago that addressed EV LCAs and studies like the one done by Volvo. They analyzed like 332 different studies. A meta analysis is a statistical analysis research study that compiles the data from multiple studies that address the same questions (for those who don't know)

What they found is that there isnt a standardized process for LCA methodology which can wildly skew results, which in turn presents challenges. Like for example, different countries that have different ambient temps which affects battery degradation. They mention that LCAs should based off a model similar to fleet vehicles. They also mentioned that few studies fail to mention and take into account globalization. Also another factor that was interesting was that also most of the studies done on global vehicle emissions are on cars in developed countries. In developing countries, motorcycles are more common and are being unaccounted for. Basically the paper suggested methods on how to improve LCA methodology based off of what they data they saw. Getting better methodology for LCAs will make it less ambiguous and more easier to communicate the impacts which will help reduce CO2 emissions.

I am attaching the study as a .pdf. I thought it was a good read.

I am not an expert in this area, so there are somethings that I do not know. Don't know the specifics about lithium Ion batteries that makes it hard to recycle, however there is progress being made in recycling the batteries. There are also SSDs which can be a possible solution to EV batteries as they are more environmental friendly (they are polymer based so lesser of two evils). Also, lithium air batteries have a lower environmental impact than lithium ion batteries so those can be manufactured instead. So its not all bad as others make it out to be.

I do agree, I think its weird that these projections are being put out before the science has caught up, but its very easy to look ahead and set a goal and then procrastinate the whole time. People do this all the time with New Years Resolutions.
 

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Riko

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It means during its lifetime. An EV needs to travel 50k miles (during its lifetime) in order to offset the initial production and operating electricity generation carbon footprint. After 50k miles, the EV’s carbon footprint (mainly from the grid) is significantly less than an ICE. Whereas an ICE will continue to output the same amount of CO2 (per year) during its lifetime.
lol 50k miles a lifetime, okay...

so whats the problem? 🤷‍♂️ :rolleyes:

I am not an expert in this area, so there are somethings that I do not know. Don't know the specifics about lithium Ion batteries that makes it hard to recycle, however there is progress being made in recycling the batteries. There are also SSDs which can be a possible solution to EV batteries as they are more environmental friendly (they are polymer based so lesser of two evils). Also, lithium air batteries have a lower environmental impact than lithium ion batteries so those can be manufactured instead. So its not all bad as others make it out to be. I do agree, that I think its weird that these projections are being put out before the science has caught up, but its very easy to look ahead and set a goal and then procrastinate the whole time. People do this all the time with New Years Resolutions.
yeah Toyota is betting heavily on SSD and say their LFA successor ev car will be based on it, and that car is scheduled to come out withing a year already, I am curious since they and nobody ever to managed to get SSD batteries in something as big as a car....

and I repeat, arent car batteries in general already for +90% recyclable?
 


TimeRacer

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and I repeat, arent car batteries in general already for +90% recyclable?
EV batteries are not 90% recyclable nor are even 10% of the spent EV batteries being recycled. Part of the reason why there's such a fear of lithium and cobalt availability in a few years as alternative chemistries aren't fully available yet in the power/capacity of lithiums. However, lead-acid batteries, the ones found in most cars, are recycled at over a 95% clip with fairly high take rates on scavenging the metals inside. Different battery chemistries and even constructions make a huge difference in recycle potential. Most EV's are designed so no one can get into the battery, hence even something small(ish) like a Nissan Leaf takes over 2 hours to get at the battery even after it's already removed from the car.
 

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yeah Toyota is betting heavily on SSD and say their LFA successor ev car will be based on it, and that car is scheduled to come out withing a year already, I am curious since they and nobody ever to managed to get SSD batteries in something as big as a car....

and I repeat, arent car batteries in general already for +90% recyclable?
That would be a step in the right direction. From a quick glance it seems like the issue with SSD is that they aren't mass produced so I guess someone will have to invest alot and I mean alot to bring down the economy of scale for it because there's just not enough supply too meet the global demand.

Car batteries are supposed to get recycled but those are mostly lead acid batteries. A study that was done this year found that only 1% of lithium ion batteries actually get recycled in the US and EU. The article I read cites that 'challenges range from the constantly evolving battery technology to costly shipping of dangerous materials to inadequate government regulation' are some of the reasons why the rate is so low

It seems like the problem is that there's alot of manual work that needs to be done because the batteries can be dangerous if not handled correct, so automation is the way to make the process more efficient. Traditional methods of recycling batteries (lead acid batteries. 99% of lead acid batteries are recycled) don't work. The good news is that there are a dozen more companies now that are working on recycling these batteries when there was just 1 a few years ago. Being able to recycle a lithium ion battery would be a game changer, it would also dramatically decrease the costs for them. I dont know why Lithium ion batteries are such a pain chemically speaking

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/
 
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Riko

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That would be a step in the right direction. From a quick glance it seems like the issue with SSD is that they aren't mass produced so I guess someone will have to invest alot and I mean alot to bring down the economy of scale for it because there's just not enough supply too meet the global demand.

Car batteries are supposed to get recycled but those are mostly lead acid batteries. A study found that was done this year found that only 1% of lithium ion batteries actually get recycled in the US and EU. The article I read cites that 'challenges range from the constantly evolving battery technology to costly shipping of dangerous materials to inadequate government regulation' are some of the reasons why the rate is so low

It seems like the problem is that there's alot of manual work that needs to be done because the batteries can be dangerous if not handled correct, so automation is way to make the process more efficient. Traditionally methods of recycling batteries (lead acid batteries. 99% of lead acid batteries are recycled) don't work. The good news is that there are a dozen more companies now that will working on recycling these batteries when there was just 1 a few year ago. Being able to recycle a lithium ion battery would be a game changer, it would also dramatically decrease the costs for them. I dont know why Lithium ion batteries are such a pain chemically speaking

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...-so-why-arent-we-recycling-lithium-batteries/
Indeed, I've also seen vids and articles ober the years of ex Tesla tech ppl that left the compnay just to focus on the recycle bit of their batteries...there are that do it, but not many.

Just like your article confirmed...

And Tesla's aim is to make it a closed loop, that would be, as you said, a game changer.
Also, just like your article confirmed.

But there are far less companies recycling than than making them, thats for sure, also, like your article confirmed. 🙂

And we still havent gone into the mass adoption phase of EVs, wich is luckely still decades away and wont even be 50% by 2050....

Besides the fact there are a few companies dedicated to recycle them, the other difficulty is the accessability of the packs and cells to begin recycling.

But that brings us again to the first issue, they're arent a lot of specialized companies doing that...

So, its not a case of a EV car battery not being 100% or near 100% recycleble @TimeRacer its that there is hardly anybody out there doing the actual recycling...

And their newer batteries and cars are even harder to seperate as car production specialist Munro and hus team explains
https://www.torquenews.com/11826/el...nro-s-challenge-tear-down-structural-pack/amp

But again, thats why there is a need of specialized companies that need to focus on that end phase of an EV car.
 

Rhorn

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Indeed, I've also seen vids and articles ober the years of ex Tesla tech ppl that left the compnay just to focus on the recycle bit of their batteries...there are that do it, but not many.

Just like your article confirmed...

And Tesla's aim is to make it a closed loop, that would be, as you said, a game changer.
Also, just like your article confirmed.

But there are far less companies recycling than than making them, thats for sure, also, like your article confirmed. 🙂

And we still havent gone into the mass adoption phase of EVs, wich is luckely still decades away and wont even be 50% by 2050....

Besides the fact there are a few companies dedicated to recycle them, the other difficulty is the accessability of the packs and cells to begin recycling.

But that brings us again to the first issue, they're arent a lot of specialized companies doing that...

So, its not a case of a EV car battery not being 100% or near 100% recycleble @TimeRacer its that there is hardly anybody out there doing the actual recycling...

And their newer batteries and cars are even harder to seperate as car production specialist Munro and hus team explains
https://www.torquenews.com/11826/el...nro-s-challenge-tear-down-structural-pack/amp

But again, thats why there is a need of specialized companies that need to focus on that end phase of an EV car.
Good points. I think another important point to note is perspective. Another thing that people do not understand is that EVs and Lithium batteries are still relatively new (I mean as in being mass marketed). When ICE automobiles were being bought en masse in the 1950s the emissions were radically different than now. Also the batteries back then impacted the environment more than lithium, as they contained mercury. Not sure when exactly car batteries transitioned from mercury to lead-acid but in 1996 mercury batteries were outlawed in the US in favor of lead-acid and Nickle batteries which still have a higher environmental impact than lithium. This would explain why there hasn't been any legislation for it yet as lithium is relatively less dangerous than mercury, lead-acid and Nickle as well as being a new technology.

You can expect the same situation with EVs. Lithium ion battery production and capacity has been dramatically rising in the past decade. As what we have discussed there is the possibility of Lithium Air or SSD batteries being used for EVs, so that uncertainty is one additional reason why there has been a lack of investment. However you can expect the recycling to begin to become more efficient when it becomes more mainstream. The fear mongering about lithium batteries doesn't make much sense in this context. Its literally more environmental friendly than lead-acid batteries which is used in ICE cars.
 

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EV batteries currently inside cars on the street aren’t being recycled because they’re still functional. Even the first mass-market EV, the Nissan Leaf, from 2011 are still being driven on the street and being sold on Autotrader. Before reaching the recycling step, EV batteries are first re-used or repurposed in other applications. You can easily find vendors that buy back/sell refurbished EV batteries today.

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