$300 Small Brake Kit, Audi RS3 Brake Ducts and ARP Wheel Studs

[11GenSonicSi]

In 2022, I ran 10-15 track days with my Si. The car ran great with stock suspension and minimal mods. As a seat time track car, I found a couple pain points and they are being addressed accordingly in this thread. Goal is to get a lot of seat time while not breaking the bank.

Disclaimer: this is me sharing my experience with my car. I will not be responsible for any vehicle fitment, damage, injury, death, etc..

Expensive custom brake pads
As of 2023, there are no manufacturer that does high volume production. So custom track pads are over $300 a set for only 20 sessions. Pad cost is through the roof considering how long they last.
After some search, I found the Honda caliper with high volume production, 10th gen non Si caliper. Decent sport pads are $100 a set. Here is the table I found on A-Premium website. Surprisingly Honda Fit uses the same caliper lol.

And I came across this great thread on brother forum civicx: https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/brake-info-thread.62520/
In this thread, mounting point data is 140mm center to center. Immediately I pulled my measurement with a tape measure. 11th gen has 140mm as well.

With caliper itself is not enough, I would need the whole system to bolt on. I measaured the hub diameter and compared it to the rotor dimension on Rock Auto. They fit. Note that 11gen Si rotor is 312mm while 10th gen non Si is 289mm. Brake bias shifts to the rear about 2-5 percent.
At this point, I pulled the trigger on parts order. Here is what I ordered to do the $300 small brake swap. Long story short, I just bought calipers, rotors, brake hoses. Brake hardware and banjo bolts actually came with Centric calipers so I ended up with a set of spares.

Lets take a look at all the 10th gen non Si parts on 11th gen Si. All of the parts bolt on except for one caveat, the dust shield.

Dust shield delete is fairly common on a track car. In this case, upon removing the dust shield, ABS sensor will be directly exposed to rotor surface. This is not good. For the time being, I wrapped the ABS sensor and lines with 3M aluminum foil tape. Reason being the car is my daily as well. I can't really afford downtime. Result on daily driving is good, no ABS warning or fault. DEI heat sleeve is on order. I will be runnning with heat sleeve rather that foils.

With that, the $300 small brake kit swap is complete.

Sprung assembly overheating

ARP studs
For a while, I though I could pull away with only high friction compound brake pads. Turns out the car did not take it so well. Brake pads are big heat sinks at the same time. When they are grind down, there are less capacity to hold heat. As a result, the heat would be spreaded to the rest of the sprung assembly.

Last August, I came across a catastrophic failure of the front axles. On a track session, the brake pads went from half all the way to the backing plate. Heat got nowhere to go but the rotors and the wheels. I felt that early because of the metal sound and ended the session. While I was in grid, I found the wheel weight fell off. and the wheels studs broke off. They went through too many heat cycles they are designed to withstand. Luckily no one was hurt.
After this incident, I decided to sell the car... oh no, wrong thread lol.
After this incident, I decided to change the studs out with ARP ones. I went with the stock length ARP, part number 100-7709. They turned out still a nipple too long to work with the Honda lug nuts. So I went ahead and bought a set of Dorman 611-144 open ended Honda lug nuts.

For deinstallation of the front studs, I didn't find a neat way to do it. What I ended up doing is to hammer the studs out, and chop the head off with an angle grinder behind the hub face.
About installation, the rear goes in without any cutting. As for the front, to prevent a wheel bearing install, head of the studs would need to be trimmed down. And dust shield would at least need a opening to allow the new studs to slip out. Or a complete dust shield removal with a tin snip. Here is a pic of what I did to the studs. I know it's controvesal, but it holds up well in my case.

Audi RS3 brake Ducts
The other day I was watching Savagegeese's Audi RS3 review.
In the review, a detail caught my eyes, the brake duct! As a high performance car with strut front suspension, RS3 came with stock brake ducts. How about a Honda with the ducts! After a quick search I found them cheapest on eBay and bought them.
Pic on the left is screenshot from video of Savagegeese, pic on the right is my car with the RS3 duct on eBay.

The fitment is great but a lot of trimming is required. Also it's mounted lower than what VW intended to do because of the sway bar protrusion. Although I don't have any data yet nor I am a person that does CFD, this should get the job done since OEs are doing it like this.


Happy new year everyone.

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[DYI01]

Interesting. Did you not consider the Genesis Brembo retrofit BBK? Its probably around the $600 mark all in if you look hard enough. You would need a new set of wheels or a set of wheel spacers to clear the calipers though.

 

[11GenSonicSi]

Interesting. Did you not consider the Genesis Brembo retrofit BBK? Its probably around the $600 mark all in if you look hard enough. You would need a new set of wheels or a set of wheel spacers to clear the calipers though.

I saw that retrofit as well. Three things deterred me from that:
1. Calipers are used.
2. No pad option.
3. Wheel spacer/does not fit stock offset wheels.
Are there high performance off the shelf solutions?Absolutely. Like BBK from 27WON. Or BBK from 2 step.
My goal is to make my car a seat time car with consumables as low as possible.

 

[Splice247]

2 questions:
1 What brake pads were you using prior to the swap, what are you using now?
2 When did the studs snap? Are you torquing lug nuts regularly?
We had similar issue when we started tracking few years ago, we would retorque lugs between sessions, they did not have time to cool down enough. The heat causes the torque value to change stretching the stud, when it returns to normal temp and you try to remove them they were welded and would snap. Just want to help.
JJ

 

[11GenSonicSi]

2 questions:
1 What brake pads were you using prior to the swap, what are you using now?
2 When did the studs snap? Are you torquing lug nuts regularly?
We had similar issue when we started tracking few years ago, we would retorque lugs between sessions, they did not have time to cool down enough. The heat causes the torque value to change stretching the stud, when it returns to normal temp and you try to remove them they were welded and would snap. Just want to help.
JJ

Hello Splice/JJ,

1. Before I was running Carbotech XP12 front and XP10 rear. The result were great and there was so much brake I could use especially after long straights. Pads now are Hawk HP plus I bought for fitment. Will start exploring pad options as Carbotech, Hawk and EBC all make pads for the new caliper.
I would love a set of Willwood Dynalite/Dynapro and use 7112 size pads. That way it’ll just share pads with my Miata while using stock wheels. No one makes a small big brake kit probably because there’s little to no customer need.

2. Thank you for your help! A lot of people discussed it with me on this. It’s very controversial. And some people were having a hard time believing me. Often times it’s caused by human error like cross-threaded or servicing when hot. In my case, I think thermal cycling is the issue. Studs became too soft, and expanded. It’s opposite to your case as mine came loose after 3 sessions of driving.
To answer your question, questions came from my friends, and folks that might see this thread in the future:
The studs snapped during deinstall while I was trying to change the shot pads. Yes I torque lug nuts regularly to Honda spec, star pattern and then double check in CW order. And there were no anti-seize on the studs. Stuff on the studs were red rust. Also no, I don’t just zip the lug nuts on with impact and go.


Here are more details in my dreaded stud experience for folks with another free 2 minutes.
Before the failure/track day, I changed out the pads and torqued the wheels. During that, I noticed I could torque the front wheels again even after the torque wrench hit its click. At the moment I thought the torque wrench was out of calibration. Turned out the studs were stretching under 80ftpd. Till this day I still remember how a stretched bolt feel through a torque wrench.
After changing the shot pads, I noticed all 10 front lug nuts were loose. They were stretched even longer. 8 of them came off with an impact and 2 snapped. At the point none of the 8 studs held torque as I drove on them home for 5 miles. When I got home, all of them are loose again. And the threads were stripping out.

 

[Splice247]

Hello Splice/JJ,

1. Before I was running Carbotech XP12 front and XP10 rear. The result were great and there was so much brake I could use especially after long straights. Pads now are Hawk HP plus I bought for fitment. Will start exploring pad options as Carbotech, Hawk and EBC all make pads for the new caliper.
I would love a set of Willwood Dynalite/Dynapro and use 7112 size pads. That way it’ll just share pads with my Miata while using stock wheels. No one makes a small big brake kit probably because there’s little to no customer need.

2. Thank you for your help! A lot of people discussed it with me on this. It’s very controversial. And some people were having a hard time believing me. Often times it’s caused by human error like cross-threaded or servicing when hot. In my case, I think thermal cycling is the issue. Studs became too soft, and expanded. It’s opposite to your case as mine came loose after 3 sessions of driving.
To answer your question, questions came from my friends, and folks that might see this thread in the future:
The studs snapped during deinstall while I was trying to change the shot pads. Yes I torque lug nuts regularly to Honda spec, star pattern and then double check in CW order. And there were no anti-seize on the studs. Stuff on the studs were red rust. Also no, I don’t just zip the lug nuts on with impact and go.


Here are more details in my dreaded stud experience for folks with another free 2 minutes.
Before the failure/track day, I changed out the pads and torqued the wheels. During that, I noticed I could torque the front wheels again even after the torque wrench hit its click. At the moment I thought the torque wrench was out of calibration. Turned out the studs were stretching under 80ftpd. Till this day I still remember how a stretched bolt feel through a torque wrench.
After changing the shot pads, I noticed all 10 front lug nuts were loose. They were stretched even longer. 8 of them came off with an impact and 2 snapped. At the point none of the 8 studs held torque as I drove on them home for 5 miles. When I got home, all of them are loose again. And the threads were stripping out.

The joys of racecar life, lol. I torque my lugs to start the day stone cold then don't touch them. Maybe after lunch break when they are ambient temp again. I used Hp plus when I first started, if you are a moderate to heavy breaker, or heavy braking track you will blow through them. I was able to get about 15min of my session before the pedal got too soft. I highly recommend G-loc brakes, they are off shoot of carbo tech (ex-enployees). You didn't mention fluid in your original post, I'm assuming you're running a high temp fluid? Wife runs a 10g Si, biggest issue so far is heat soak and not enough camber; bone stock other than pads and fluid. Need camber and an intercooler bad.

 

[11GenSonicSi]

The joys of racecar life, lol. I torque my lugs to start the day stone cold then don't touch them. Maybe after lunch break when they are ambient temp again. I used Hp plus when I first started, if you are a moderate to heavy breaker, or heavy braking track you will blow through them. I was able to get about 15min of my session before the pedal got too soft. I highly recommend G-loc brakes, they are off shoot of carbo tech (ex-enployees). You didn't mention fluid in your original post, I'm assuming you're running a high temp fluid? Wife runs a 10g Si, biggest issue so far is heat soak and not enough camber; bone stock other than pads and fluid. Need camber and an intercooler bad.

Indeed. Race cars break lol.
Front brakes of this platform run so hot to a point regardless of what pads in there the car is going to go through them.
There was a time I immediately measured the caliper and rotor in the paddock. Rotor reading was 800F after cool down laps.
Better pads still provide braking force at high temp, no so much at pad wear.
I’m a fan of Motul 660. They are no problem in my Miata. But in the Civic, end of the day pedal would feel soft but same braking force can be achieved with more pedal effort. An evident of brake fluid boiling. I’m hoping the RS3 brake duct would do wonders.
Coilovers and rear arms are on order as well to dial in the tire wear. Stock car has too much front tire side wall fold over resulting a tapered wear.
Heat soak is indeed an issue. On a 2 minute track, intercooler heat soak caused me 1-2 seconds.

 

[alhounos]

Very interesting thread, thanks for posting! Please update us as you get some track days with this setup.

I never would have thought to swap smaller brakes on to a track car that was having brake overheating problems, but you explained your thought process clearly and it makes sense. I am interested to see how it works for you.

Personally, I think would go through the pain of dropping the extra $1400 on a 27won BBK, not for any logical reason but just because I don't think I could bring myself to spend $300 to 'downgrade' my brakes. But like I said, it makes sense the way you explain it. If it works out for you I might just change my mind. Let us know!

 

[alhounos]

Also, great work on the RS3 brake ducts!

 

[11GenSonicSi]

Very interesting thread, thanks for posting! Please update us as you get some track days with this setup.

I never would have thought to swap smaller brakes on to a track car that was having brake overheating problems, but you explained your thought process clearly and it makes sense. I am interested to see how it works for you.

Personally, I think would go through the pain of dropping the extra $1400 on a 27won BBK, not for any logical reason but just because I don't think I could bring myself to spend $300 to 'downgrade' my brakes. But like I said, it makes sense the way you explain it. If it works out for you I might just change my mind. Let us know!

Thanks!
It comes down to cost, availability and my budget.
First brake system came into my mind was 10th gen Si. It has the same rotor diameter. To my surprise, the pad options are about the same as 11th gen. So I went with the non Si model.
The $300 was more like a click bait title. 11th gen Si system on RockAuto runs at around $300 as well.
Brakes being smaller is indeed less street cred. And it took me a couple months to sink in and do it. Or judging by the speed of pad wear, I won’t be willing to run this car as a track car.
Also I’m k swapping my Miata. That car is receiving the best parts my money can buy. With that, I went the low key route with my Civic.
For the coming season, I’ll keep this thread updated once I have data. Planning to get rotor temp paint and caliper temp stickers when the season begins.

 

[ValkenDnB]

Wait so I can run my civic si on the track with just high temp break fluid and pads and be fine for a couple hot laps? Also, do I need to change my oil from the OEM 0W-20 to maybe 5W-20 or something thicker for the track?

 

[11GenSonicSi]

Wait so I can run my civic si on the track with just high temp break fluid and pads and be fine for a couple hot laps? Also, do I need to change my oil from the OEM 0W-20 to maybe 5W-20 or something thicker for the track?

Yes, you’ll be fine short term with only high temp fluid and high temp track pads. Long term air provisioning is required as the front axles run very hot. The excess heat caused a lot of damage in my last season.
I do run a thicker ester based 5W-30 oil as the engine is know to have heat soak as well. Ester based oil are less likely to breakdown at higher temp.
5W stands for oil viscosity at low temperature. The higher the number, the lower the engine will be lubricated at startup. 30 stands for operating viscosity at 100C/212F.
I believe the 20 weight oil is purely out of fuel economy and emission standards. Japanese car manual calls for a 30 weight.

 

[ValkenDnB]

Yes, you’ll be fine short term with only high temp fluid and high temp track pads. Long term air provisioning is required as the front axles run very hot. The excess heat caused a lot of damage in my last season.
I do run a thicker ester based 5W-30 oil as the engine is know to have heat soak as well. Ester based oil are less likely to breakdown at higher temp.
5W stands for oil viscosity at low temperature. The higher the number, the lower the engine will be lubricated at startup. 30 stands for operating viscosity at 100C/212F.
I believe the 20 weight oil is purely out of fuel economy and emission standards. Japanese car manual calls for a 30 weight.

Do you normall run 5W-30 all year round or just track?

 

[11GenSonicSi]

Do you normall run 5W-30 all year round or just track?

I am running 5W-30 all year round. And I sent one oil sample to oil sampling lab. Redline is the brand I use. It held up well. Normally I change oil after 5-7 track days as a preventative maintenance. And that’s around every 3 months. Ester based oil has shorter street mileage.

 

[ValkenDnB]

I am running 5W-30 all year round. And I sent one oil sample to oil sampling lab. Redline is the brand I use. It held up well. Normally I change oil after 5-7 track days as a preventative maintenance. And that’s around every 3 months. Ester based oil has shorter street mileage.

Hmm I might cancel my lifetime oil plan if 0W-20 isn’t good for the engine. I know my mechanic recommended at least 5W-20. He ran 5W-30 but his si was heavily modified.

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