Late Development Speculation

[ASIMO Assassin]

I think the tire width difference alone can cover the 9/10th time difference on the course, assuming like for like tires. Doubt there will be a power difference. I hate to be a pessimist, but its Honda we are talking about. History has proved, they don't just hand out HP willy nilly. I think they are sitting there wondering if they really are going to put 265/30 19s on the car. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Yeah honestly if I had to bet, I would bet on almost no more power for this one. Honda has a solid track record of holding back horsepower, so not a lot of hope there. The video of them at Suzuka also shows the car carrying some very impressive speeds thru the corners, and that is probably enough to pull off that track time without much more power.

Although as a counter point, this is going to be it for the pure-form Type-R as things change over to electric. There really isn't a reason to hold back. The design team will probably want to leave a legacy and go all-out on making this something to remember. Will they really be satisfied with saying "There it is, a perfectly adequate modestly improved version... the last of it's kind, glad we were reserved and didn't make it too memorable!".

As an example, I think the GRC is basically Toyota going all. The Toyota team has totally broken character lately. Even the Supra is being given the manual it always deserved. The pressure is on for Honda to create their final ICE legacy with the Type-R, and ~310hp isn't really going to do that for them.

The one thing I am curious about is if handling/tires/aero is going to be enough to get them a win at Nürburgring. They are literally so fine tuned at this point that they are just fighting the wind resistance for time, and more top end power kind of seems like the right solution there.

Sponsored

 

[mbaapk]

Yeah honestly if I had to bet, I would bet on almost no more power for this one. Honda has a solid track record of holding back horsepower, so not a lot of hope there. The video of them at Suzuka also shows the car carrying some very impressive speeds thru the corners, and that is probably enough to pull off that track time without much more power.

Although as a counter point, this is going to be it for the pure-form Type-R as things change over to electric. There really isn't a reason to hold back. The design team will probably want to leave a legacy and go all-out on making this something to remember. Will they really be satisfied with saying "There it is, a perfectly adequate modestly improved version... the last of it's kind, glad we were reserved and didn't make it too memorable!".

As an example, I think the GRC is basically Toyota going all. The Toyota team has totally broken character lately. Even the Supra is being given the manual it always deserved. The pressure is on for Honda to create their final ICE legacy with the Type-R, and ~310hp isn't really going to do that for them.

The one thing I am curious about is if handling/tires/aero is going to be enough to get them a win at Nürburgring. They are literally so fine tuned at this point that they are just fighting the wind resistance for time, and more top end power kind of seems like the right solution there.

It will be interesting. Have to think the LE would overtake the 2017 by at least several seconds and the 2023 better the LE by several seconds. Just need to strap in a bad ass driver and let it ride.

 

[TimeRacer]

Yeah honestly if I had to bet, I would bet on almost no more power for this one. Honda has a solid track record of holding back horsepower, so not a lot of hope there. The video of them at Suzuka also shows the car carrying some very impressive speeds thru the corners, and that is probably enough to pull off that track time without much more power.

Look at the video again, you see quite a handful of turns where the car is understeer skipping along (lap time 0:26, 0:37, 1:09, 1:22) with one right sweeper turn where the car heavily understeered into the corner (0:57) where the car goes into compression during a braking zone. Though not going to claim I know where all the bumps are in Suzuka and the best way to drive it, but there appears the car is struggling to put down the power without over stressing the tires as it is causing the tire skips trying to pull out of corners. There appears to be more time to be had via some tuning.

The pressure is on for Honda to create their final ICE legacy with the Type-R, and ~310hp isn't really going to do that for them.

The one thing I am curious about is if handling/tires/aero is going to be enough to get them a win at Nürburgring. They are literally so fine tuned at this point that they are just fighting the wind resistance for time, and more top end power kind of seems like the right solution there.

The obsession with Nurburgring records isn't something that Honda has really ever had, how many of their cars held the lap record for their category? This is more a fan thing, Nurburgring is mainly an excellent testing facility and why even those who have no intention of setting category records test there. Toyota kind forces their use by using the GRMN acronym, "Gazoo Racing, tuned by the Meister of the Nurburgring." One needs to understand the CTR is nearly at the limit of useful FWD power especially at a bumpy undulating track like Nurburgring. Unless you're looking at a car that only can put down full power in a straight line with slicks, so slapping a 500hp motor Lynk & Co style which vastly hurts drivability, price and daily driver usefulness - sure it can set a better laptime but likely at a big compromise to Honda's goals. Horsepower isn't hard in today's forced induction world. It's making it pass emissions, EPA MPG needs, reliability and cost windows.

It will be interesting. Have to think the LE would overtake the 2017 by at least several seconds and the 2023 better the LE by several seconds. Just need to strap in a bad ass driver and let it ride.

Remember, most of what the LE got was weight reduction and better stock tires which was already done in the 2017 lap. By deleting the infotainment and rear interior. Honda claimed it's to offset the weight of the roll cage and the roll cage didn't add any structural rigidity to the car, so really no point to put the investment into a LE record attempt. You're chasing and finer and finer edge here if you want to maintain day to day drivability and staying within the Civic platform/price point. "Several seconds" isn't going to be easy without some possibly big compromises. The CTR is a street car that can go to the track. Honda, along with most users, don't want a race car that can drive on the street. Seriously worrying about Nurburgring lap records isn't what any street car's development is about but only a bonus if it happens. It's the epitome of spec sheet racing with no interest in how a car actually drives.

 

[mbaapk]

Look at the video again, you see quite a handful of turns where the car is understeer skipping along (lap time 0:26, 0:37, 1:09, 1:22) with one right sweeper turn where the car heavily understeered into the corner (0:57) where the car goes into compression during a braking zone. Though not going to claim I know where all the bumps are in Suzuka and the best way to drive it, but there appears the car is struggling to put down the power without over stressing the tires as it is causing the tire skips trying to pull out of corners. There appears to be more time to be had via some tuning.


The obsession with Nurburgring records isn't something that Honda has really ever had, how many of their cars held the lap record for their category? This is more a fan thing, Nurburgring is mainly an excellent testing facility and why even those who have no intention of setting category records test there. Toyota kind forces their use by using the GRMN acronym, "Gazoo Racing, tuned by the Meister of the Nurburgring." One needs to understand the CTR is nearly at the limit of useful FWD power especially at a bumpy undulating track like Nurburgring. Unless you're looking at a car that only can put down full power in a straight line with slicks, so slapping a 500hp motor Lynk & Co style which vastly hurts drivability, price and daily driver usefulness - sure it can set a better laptime but likely at a big compromise to Honda's goals. Horsepower isn't hard in today's forced induction world. It's making it pass emissions, EPA MPG needs, reliability and cost windows.


Remember, most of what the LE got was weight reduction and better stock tires which was already done in the 2017 lap. By deleting the infotainment and rear interior. Honda claimed it's to offset the weight of the roll cage and the roll cage didn't add any structural rigidity to the car, so really no point to put the investment into a LE record attempt. You're chasing and finer and finer edge here if you want to maintain day to day drivability and staying within the Civic platform/price point. "Several seconds" isn't going to be easy without some possibly big compromises. The CTR is a street car that can go to the track. Honda, along with most users, don't want a race car that can drive on the street. Seriously worrying about Nurburgring lap records isn't what any street car's development is about but only a bonus if it happens. It's the epitome of spec sheet racing with no interest in how a car actually drives.

The extra inch in the tires should do it alone. To your point, my gut tells me this gen is the razors edge and may be the last as we know it.

 

[TimeRacer]

The extra inch in the tires should do it alone. To your point, my gut tells me this gen is the razors edge and may be the last as we know it.

Where is the rampant speculation coming from about any extra tire width automatically gives you copious amounts of time and only in the positive? Again, this really seems like spec sheet racing without any actual real world knowledge or racing experience. With a performance alignment and ~3 degrees of negative camber there is a limit to how much tire the car can actually use, never mind make significant performance gains from. You still need to constantly spin up and down all that extra weight and there's a limit to what the car's suspension geometry can actually use. I just find it nutty everyone already has the formulaic answer as to how and why the new Civic set a new record with Honda only showing you tire sizes and a lap time with slow telemetry data. It's ignored that the wheelbase is longer and the new car is likely heavier based on other 10th to 11th gen differences, more rigid chassis and myraiad of small changes. But I'm very much outclassed in this level of spec sheet racing, I have to actually go out and test this kind of stuff with my cars at track days and autocross days and swap wheelsets, even on the race teams I've participated with. Even then there's still questions to where each modification makes time and loses time and what's the best choice. But who knows, maybe it's only recent discovery adding 20mm to the tread width always gives ~.4 seconds/min on all circuits.

 

[mbaapk]

Where is the rampant speculation coming from about any extra tire width automatically gives you copious amounts of time and only in the positive? Again, this really seems like spec sheet racing without any actual real world knowledge or racing experience. With a performance alignment and ~3 degrees of negative camber there is a limit to how much tire the car can actually use, never mind make significant performance gains from. You still need to constantly spin up and down all that extra weight and there's a limit to what the car's suspension geometry can actually use. I just find it nutty everyone already has the formulaic answer as to how and why the new Civic set a new record with Honda only showing you tire sizes and a lap time with slow telemetry data. It's ignored that the wheelbase is longer and the new car is likely heavier based on other 10th to 11th gen differences. But I'm very much outclassed in this level of spec sheet racing, I have to actually go out and test this kind of stuff with my cars at track days and autocross days and swap wheelsets, even on the race teams I've participated with. Even then there's still questions to where each modification makes time and loses time and what's the best choice. But who knows, maybe it's only recent discovery adding 20mm to the tread width always gives ~.4 seconds/min on all circuits.

Now you are just trying way too hard….

 

[TimeRacer]

Now you are just trying way too hard….

There's a massive difference between actually 'trying' (actual testing) vs rampant speculation (attaching the entire performance track time benefit to a single attribute with no actual understanding). I'm highlighting just how silly it is to make the claims you're trying to make in hopes further rampant speculation is toned down a little bit. Especially coming from individuals with little to no timed track time under their belt. Hence why I pointed out the issues with the new lap, there's definitely deficiencies even in that record lap. In the end you're free to claim whatever you want though - just needs to be treated for what it is. It's just like thinking the cars that set the fastest Nurburgring laps actually make good street cars... they don't.

 

[zeroptzero]

I think Honda waited for Toyota to unveil the GR Corolla. Speaking of which, Toyota shocked a lot of people with that bliss 300 hp number. Few believed they would actually raise the GR Yaris output by an additional ~35 hp. And it’s probably grossly underrated, too.

While not exactly a direct competitor, it’s generating a lot of hype, which I believe may influence final specs on the Type R.

I seen a good video recently of the Sti and the Yaris on a road course. The Yaris wasn't any faster than the STi, I think the Civic Type R will be faster than both of them on a similar road course, it should be a track demon and Honda is doing a lot of testing on it which should pay off in dividends.

 

[007]

I seen a good video recently of the Sti and the Yaris on a road course. The Yaris wasn't any faster than the STi, I think the Civic Type R will be faster than both of them on a similar road course, it should be a track demon and Honda is doing a lot of testing on it which should pay off in dividends.

Well, the GR Yaris is 600 lbs lighter. That’s huge. So while the lap times may be similar, GRY being that much lighter means it’s twice as exciting as the STi. Agreed on the upcoming CTR probably wiping the floor with both.

 

[ASIMO Assassin]

Look at the video again, you see quite a handful of turns where the car is understeer skipping along (lap time 0:26, 0:37, 1:09, 1:22) with one right sweeper turn where the car heavily understeered into the corner (0:57) where the car goes into compression during a braking zone. Though not going to claim I know where all the bumps are in Suzuka and the best way to drive it, but there appears the car is struggling to put down the power without over stressing the tires as it is causing the tire skips trying to pull out of corners. There appears to be more time to be had via some tuning.

Yeah they were really manhandling it, haha. Those guys have probably driven that track so many times at this point they know all the tricks to pick up time.

I've had a few laps like that in the past, walking the feverish balance between traction and peril. Not at those kind of speeds though, that is why I was saying it was impressive.

The obsession with Nurburgring records isn't something that Honda has really ever had, how many of their cars held the lap record for their category? This is more a fan thing, Nurburgring is mainly an excellent testing facility and why even those who have no intention of setting category records test there. Toyota kind forces their use by using the GRMN acronym, "Gazoo Racing, tuned by the Meister of the Nurburgring." One needs to understand the CTR is nearly at the limit of useful FWD power especially at a bumpy undulating track like Nurburgring. Unless you're looking at a car that only can put down full power in a straight line with slicks, so slapping a 500hp motor Lynk & Co style which vastly hurts drivability, price and daily driver usefulness - sure it can set a better laptime but likely at a big compromise to Honda's goals. Horsepower isn't hard in today's forced induction world. It's making it pass emissions, EPA MPG needs, reliability and cost windows.

I understand your point, and it is valid for sure. I still think that for this particular record, they are obsessing over it. They got a little taste of the record the first time they took it, it got splashed across every publication and brought a lot of attention to the brand.

They have been going out there a lot with the Type-R models. I can't see them backing down from setting a new record there.

 

[TimeRacer]

I understand your point, and it is valid for sure. I still think that for this particular record, they are obsessing over it. They got a little taste of the record the first time they took it, it got splashed across every publication and brought a lot of attention to the brand.

They have been going out there a lot with the Type-R models. I can't see them backing down from setting a new record there.

Did Honda ever really push the record into your face? I never saw a Honda marketing flier touring Nurburgring status. I did see a bunch of media pushing it and the community latching onto it. But depending upon which record you're concerned about, the FWD one is gone and completely owned by the Lynk & Co 03. FWD Production is possible, but realize the Megane Trophy R costs $75k and is more race car than street car so Honda is going to have to do it on basically a half budget and a different base goal. Compact production car? Think that went to the Audi RS3 which again is a $80k vehicle. Again, if it happens as part of your development, it's great, go ahead and market it. But if people out spend you and put out more race car than street car... you're simply going to lose and you're wasting time and money as it's not a goal you're willing to compromise the streetability of the car for. They go out to Nurburgring for testing on a bumpy or closer to real world roads at speed. You can't publicly test how any car will be at 100mph going over a few bumps, off camber on a eroded surface anywhere else in the world. Most race tracks are quite smooth, Nurburgring is different. Don't equate testing at Nurburgring only as prepping for lap record attempts. Simply isn't the case, or is that what you think the next Volvo V60 or the Nissan Juke, Range Rovers, Mini Countryman, any of the BMW entry level SUV and a litany of other brands/cars are doing on site? All prepping for a manufacturer supported hero lap? Again, I think this is more fans want the lap a lot more than Honda does.

 

[mbaapk]

Did Honda ever really push the record into your face? I never saw a Honda marketing flier touring Nurburgring status. I did see a bunch of media pushing it and the community latching onto it. But depending upon which record you're concerned about, the FWD one is gone and completely owned by the Lynk & Co 03. FWD Production is possible, but realize the Megane Trophy R costs $75k and is more race car than street car so Honda is going to have to do it on basically a half budget and a different base goal. Compact production car? Think that went to the Audi RS3 which again is a $80k vehicle. Again, if it happens as part of your development, it's great, go ahead and market it. But if people out spend you and put out more race car than street car... you're simply going to lose and you're wasting time and money as it's not a goal you're willing to compromise the streetability of the car for. They go out to Nurburgring for testing on a bumpy or closer to real world roads at speed. You can't publicly test how any car will be at 100mph going over a few bumps, off camber on a eroded surface anywhere else in the world. Most race tracks are quite smooth, Nurburgring is different. Don't equate testing at Nurburgring only as prepping for lap record attempts. Simply isn't the case, or is that what you think the next Volvo V60 or the Nissan Juke, Range Rovers, Mini Countryman, any of the BMW entry level SUV and a litany of other brands/cars are doing on site? All prepping for a manufacturer supported hero lap? Again, I think this is more fans want the lap a lot more than Honda does.

I have the feeling you are taking a thread about speculation way too seriously. Just sayin’….

 

[TimeRacer]

I have the feeling you are taking a thread about speculation way too seriously. Just sayin’….

Interesting this is the second time you've slapped a passing judgement when it's simply about a very minor level accuracy. It's cool to speculate, I get it. But you both are speculating in the weeds where nothing remotely close to actual is ever going to be found. With all the changes from the 10th to 11th gen Civic's, you attribute the entire track benefit to Honda just needed to be reminded to put on 20mm wider tires if they want a better time. Genius. ASIMO is asserting the only reason to ever show up to Nurburgring is to go for a record. There's a hell of a lot of cars that went for the record then and nothing is made of it as nearly every car in development makes a trip there. But this is all speculation right? Just really strange to me to be this off base and justify it by saying it's speculation. But all good as I see the purpose now, play on.

 

[mbaapk]

Next speculation…..another track record announcement prior to mid ohio….

 

[TimeRacer]

Passive aggressive much?

Don't think you understand what passive aggressive means. You're simply not comprehending the difference between substantiated and unsubstantiated information. Nothing you're stating is substantiated with any basis from Honda or even rumorville, it's just something you made up. That's not even speculation, it's a want list which has nothing to do with any development of the car. So silly the thread goes cold for nearly 3 weeks and yet you're compelled to tag me about that.

As for your 'speculation,' there's no official factory Honda supported record for the Civic Type-R at Mid-Ohio to announce. So any lap time, should they even post one, is a "track record announcement." There's only a handful of tracks Honda has set a 'track record' to break. But this is from a grounded mentality with actual factual information. Don't tag me if you want to play in the anything goes playpen for the kiddos.

Sponsored