Raiti's Ride preview of the 2023 Civic Type R prototype (close-up walkaround)

[Whitboy82]

Yeah, I definitely don’t think a Civic, even in Type R trim, is a true sports car, like the NSX. But I do think that the R, at least initially, was to be a “track ready” variant of the Civic. I do use Track Ready loosely, as I understand that can mean a lot of different things to different people…

Wouldn’t it also be true that ride stiffness doesn’t directly correlate to good handling? Thought I watched something once where they talked about proper dampening being more important?

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[s2kdriver80]

Yeah, I definitely don’t think a Civic, even in Type R trim, is a true sports car, like the NSX. But I do think that the R, at least initially, was to be a “track ready” variant of the Civic. I do use Track Ready loosely, as I understand that can mean a lot of different things to different people…

Wouldn’t it also be true that ride stiffness doesn’t directly correlate to good handling? Thought I watched something once where they talked about proper dampening being more important?

Stiffer suspension = better handling is a generic statement. In normal street driving, definitely may not apply due to a wide variety of road conditions. For the track, it depends, but in general stiffer is better especially for smoother tracks (good reason why high end aftermarket coilovers have generally high rates). May not apply to the Nurburgring though. Both springs and dampers contribute to ride harshness. CTR springs are very soft, but the dampers in +R are pretty decent.

But disregarding all that, for me, a stiff-riding car feels more engaging and fun to drive, feeling the undulations of the road and the directness. As long as it's not negatively affecting the performance of the way I drive on the street, I don't mind a firm ride.

 

[TimeRacer]

I don’t know if that’s a completely accurate statement. Maybe to people only old enough to really know the FK8, but if you go back through the overall history of the Type R, from the NSX, Integra, and Civic, it’s pretty easy to see that your viewpoint is a fairly new one. All of those vehicles were meant to be a race car for the road, honoring their racing accomplishments.

If you look back at the 1992 NSX Type R, that started it all, the R was made because people wanted a race ready version of the more comfortable and practical NSX.

Even the 1st gen NSX-R wasn't top of class in track speed. It was and is one of the few with a N/A motor when everything else in class was turbocharged, even at that time. The Supra, Skyline, RX-7, etc while all under the Japanese "gentleman's" agreement was likely the lowest powered of the bunch in reality. What it did have was Mid-rear drivetrain layout, lightweight objective and very low slung body which gave it the "reliable Ferrari killer" title of the time. It wasn't fastest in class like nearly all Honda vehicles. It's a very balanced focused car which made it such a legend of its time, not because it was trying to be the fastest which typically means pretty scary at the limit, the NSX (don't know about the R, I haven't driven it but it's really just a lowered, lightweight version of the base NSX with a fully blueprinted engine) is really easy to drive at 8/10ths unlike something with the same drivetrain layout like the 2nd gen MR2. The R33 Skyline GT-R was probably the one lap hero of the time with much more power than advertised and the best, at the time, traction control system on board. Only issue was the weight which overloaded the tires in a few laps. The NSX-R could keep on going weighing over 700 lbs less than the GT-R.

As for suspension stiffness, this is coming from someone who used to drive a car w/ 10kg/mm front and 12kg/mm rear springs on the 2000's era cars. It's tolerable with high end setups on decent streets but really annoying in a place like pothole ridden San Francisco but that's also on a $3k coilover system with tons of damper adjustability and additional fluid capacity built in. It's simply not going to fly for the target market of the CTR though. Those who can handle stiffer setups will just modify their cars to their liking. The FK8 CTR has ~4.4kg/mm springs which is under the entry level for aftermarket spring systems for most compact cars, so still fairly soft. One of the autocross legal 'modifications' for stock class is to install over dampened dampers for your spring rates to use the compression curve as an artificial crutch for the squishy spring rate. This is what Honda has been doing, but after a point you simply need to increase the spring rate as the body lean isn't controlled with compression dampening, you just load quicker but total lean doesn't change. Increasing the spring rate hurts the ride quality but helps to control the body lean and time to load the suspension.

But disregarding all that, for me, a stiff-riding car feels more engaging and fun to drive, feeling the undulations of the road and the directness. As long as it's not negatively affecting the performance of the way I drive on the street, I don't mind a firm ride.

A lot of this feeling, IMO, comes from just the time to load once you turn in. Which in many cases you can get from larger sway bars and a faster ramp in compression damper rates. It's how VW did it for years during the same era and part of the reason they were known to tripod when throwing on really sticky tires for autocross. Obviously though you don't want that with a RWD vehicle though like the NSX/S2k but usually the weight of the rear powertrain kept much of that at bay. But in terms of true performance though nothing replaces a stiffer set of springs paired with a good set of dampers.

But drifted too far off topic... I will reiterate I hope Honda goes their typical Honda way and stumbles into records because they achieved their design goals. Not because their goal is a lap time. We'll have to see what actually gets released out to the public in 2 weeks.

 

[Whitboy82]

Even the 1st gen NSX-R wasn't top of class in track speed. It was and is one of the few with a N/A motor when everything else in class was turbocharged, even at that time. The Supra, Skyline, RX-7, etc while all under the Japanese "gentleman's" agreement was likely the lowest powered of the bunch in reality. What it did have was Mid-rear drivetrain layout, lightweight objective and very low slung body which gave it the "reliable Ferrari killer" title of the time. It wasn't fastest in class like nearly all Honda vehicles. It's a very balanced focused car which made it such a legend of its time, not because it was trying to be the fastest which typically means pretty scary at the limit, the NSX (don't know about the R, I haven't driven it but it's really just a lowered, lightweight version of the base NSX with a fully blueprinted engine) is really easy to drive at 8/10ths unlike something with the same drivetrain layout like the 2nd gen MR2. The R33 Skyline GT-R was probably the one lap hero of the time with much more power than advertised and the best, at the time, traction control system on board. Only issue was the weight which overloaded the tires in a few laps. The NSX-R could keep on going weighing over 700 lbs less than the GT-R.

As for suspension stiffness, this is coming from someone who used to drive a car w/ 10kg/mm front and 12kg/mm rear springs on the 2000's era cars. It's tolerable with high end setups on decent streets but really annoying in a place like pothole ridden San Francisco but that's also on a $3k coilover system with tons of damper adjustability and additional fluid capacity built in. It's simply not going to fly for the target market of the CTR though. Those who can handle stiffer setups will just modify their cars to their liking. The FK8 CTR has ~4.4kg/mm springs which is under the entry level for aftermarket spring systems for most compact cars, so still fairly soft. One of the autocross legal 'modifications' for stock class is to install over dampened dampers for your spring rates to use the compression curve as an artificial crutch for the squishy spring rate. This is what Honda has been doing, but after a point you simply need to increase the spring rate as the body lean isn't controlled with compression dampening, you just load quicker but total lean doesn't change. Increasing the spring rate hurts the ride quality but helps to control the body lean and time to load the suspension.


A lot of this feeling, IMO, comes from just the time to load once you turn in. Which in many cases you can get from larger sway bars and a faster ramp in compression damper rates. It's how VW did it for years during the same era and part of the reason they were known to tripod when throwing on really sticky tires for autocross. Obviously though you don't want that with a RWD vehicle though like the NSX/S2k but usually the weight of the rear powertrain kept much of that at bay. But in terms of true performance though nothing replaces a stiffer set of springs paired with a good set of dampers.

But drifted too far off topic... I will reiterate I hope Honda goes their typical Honda way and stumbles into records because they achieved their design goals. Not because their goal is a lap time. We'll have to see what actually gets released out to the public in 2 weeks.

Not really sure what all of that has to do with my point?

 

[s2kdriver80]

If Honda attempts another record at the Nurburgring, it will probably be right after the public announcement, without the camo suit. We'll see what happens.

 

[ASIMO Assassin]

If Honda attempts another record at the Nurburgring, it will probably be right after the public announcement, without the camo suit. We'll see what happens.

I am kind of expecting it will play out like this. It would be such a weird marketing choice for them to have released that promo video last month and then not set a record.

We've already had this discussion. Going back to the Ring doesn't mean they're chasing the FWD production record. It's simply called final testing their suspension setup over a rough closer to real world road conditions closed track. There's good reason why everything from vans, SUV's, low powered econo-boxes go testing at the Ring. IF it was for record setting attempts you'd see a full roll cage on the car from the spy shots. Go look at ANY of the recent record setting attempts and you'll see a few tell tale features of the car when they're testing at 10/10ths. I get you continually think Honda is obsessed with Nurburgring but realize, they've had exactly ONE car that's held a record and they didn't try and re-chase the record with the limited edition once the record was taken. Honda is a conservative company and never has built the highest horsepower or fastest car in its class as a primary design goal. Also adjustable dampers don't create a split personality car, the spring rate is the spring rate which plays a major role in finding the effective wheel rate which greatly influences the ride comfort.

As for the HP number, there's no reason to release the Suzuka time and then change the horsepower figure. The engine and horsepower they used at Suzuka is what it's being released with. Honda probably has been sitting on that time from Dec-March in hopes of improving through a better lap or suspension tweaks but very unlikely to change much, much less power, once they started releasing lap times. But I'm sure none of this matters, you'll still think Honda is record chasing which most people don't want as they don't want to climb in a car with race car firmness/personality as their primary driver and has never been what the Type-R is about.

I also get that you continually think that Honda is not obsessed At least it is easy to resolve; if they release a new record then they were at least serious about it, however, if no new record is released, then I will concede your points. No real reason we have to keep revisiting this.

I would disagree with you on the dampers, and so would most journalists. Most are quite to fuss when adjustable active dampers are missing from touring cars in their reviews these days. They do wonders to react to rough surfaces and smooth out the ride, making performance touring cars that would otherwise drive like jarring horse wagons drive far more civilized instead.

To quote Sebastian Cenizo from his article on carbuzz.com:

And thanks to adaptive dampers, driving this car over long distances is more comfortable than catching a reflection of the Type R in a shop window

As far as horsepower figures go, I expect a decent bump. If not for breaking records, then mainly because those figures will draw in more buyers if they are noticeably above the competition. At this moment, I would say the main competition is going to be the Elantra N and the VW Golf R. IMO 330hp would set them apart enough to snag additional buyers. Again, at least we will get the answer soon, so not really worth getting too invested in an opinion here.

 

[TimeRacer]

Not really sure what all of that has to do with my point?

Giving some history of the era of the NSX-R and the R moniker you were speaking to. It simply wasn't trying to achieve the fastest speeds but instead an incredibly balanced car. Even the ITR and the CTR, they were first evolutions of the car they were based upon and second they were incredibly balanced but never the fastest in class in part because they weren't designed to be hairy at the limit as that's inherently part of Honda's design philosophy. They're pretty easy cars to drive at the limit since they give a good buffer in their limits instead of snap releases of some other cars. No Hellcat will ever come out of Honda's R&D facility. Additionally tried to show how a stiff ride doesn't have to be there to improve the handling but ultimately you need to eventually degrade the handling to get the lean under control. But I guess that's too technical and into the weeds, as this is from a competitive autocrosser. The Type-R's were simply refinement of the Honda formula. Lightness and simplicity going for a balanced car. Doesn't matter if it's the NSX, S2k (I know no Type-R for the S2k but part of the Honda philosophy), ITR, CTR... they've always made the Type-R changes simple (no new fancy turbo, traction control system, huge change in suspension geometry or drivetrain), refinement to the core vehicle and lighter parts. That's really all there is to the Type-R's.

I would disagree with you on the dampers, and so would most journalists. Most are quite to fuss when adjustable active dampers are missing from touring cars in their reviews these days. They do wonders to react to rough surfaces and smooth out the ride, making performance touring cars that would otherwise drive like jarring horse wagons drive far more civilized instead.

That's just showing you don't understand the suspension and need a journalist, not an engineer, to tell you what to think about it. I outlined exactly what was going on in my post you quoted. They're over dampening the compression to make up for the lack of spring rate. Hence why when they 'adjust' the compression rate down it can have a better ride rather than just going for dampers matched to the spring rate. However, there is a definite limit to this band-aid. As the amount of roll the car will have is still going to be the amount of roll the car will have. The car simply loads the damper faster but it isn't a replacement for spring rate as the change in camber & caster due to the car roll eventually becomes a hindrance.

As for the track record, almost all your posts refer to it. As I've said, you're more obsessed about it than Honda is. You're even so compelled to respond to the few posts I make to say more about going for the record. If there was actually some evidence Honda was prepping a car for record attempts, cool, by all means say they're going for it. But literally every time Honda shows up on a track or in Europe, you're saying they're going for the record. It's just a broken record. In any case just like last time they're likely going to do it once the car is finalized and the wrap is off. One of a few tell tale signs they're going for it. None of those have happened yet. Great if they go for it, nothing is preventing them from setting a record. Compromising their design philosophy just to hit a track time, just isn't what Honda does even with as much as you want them to.

 

[ASIMO Assassin]

That's just showing you don't understand the suspension and need a journalist, not an engineer, to tell you what to think about it.

Honestly, you don't need to resort to personal attacks because somebody disagrees with you.

I could be a 16 year old kid, or I could be an engineer with an extensive background in racing. Same goes for most of the people on this forum. To start telling people they don't understand things because you disagree with their ideas or opinions is short sighted.

I outlined exactly what was going on in my post you quoted. They're over dampening the compression to make up for the lack of spring rate. Hence why when they 'adjust' the compression rate down it can have a better ride rather than just going for dampers matched to the spring rate. However, there is a definite limit to this band-aid. As the amount of roll the car will have is still going to be the amount of roll the car will have. The car simply loads the damper faster but it isn't a replacement for spring rate as the change in camber & caster due to the car roll eventually becomes a hindrance.

Regardless of your opinion here, the fact is that the majority of automotive journalists attribute comfort and smoothness with the addition of adaptive dampers on touring cars. I don't need to argue the technical merits of this when enough empirical evidence exists out there for you to verify it.

Adaptive dampers will make the Type-R a more comfortable touring car compared to if the dampers were not adaptive. With a more customizable drive mode, people will be able to make further adjustments that they prefer. That is my point. I am not sure what you are arguing here.

As for the track record, almost all your posts refer to it. As I've said, you're more obsessed about it than Honda is. If there was some evidence Honda was prepping a car for record attempts, cool, by all means say they're going for it. But literally every time Honda shows up to Germany, you're saying they're going for the record. It's just a broken record. In any case just like last time they're likely going to do it once the car is finalized and the wrap is off. As I said, one of a few tell tale signs they're going for it. None of those have happened yet. Great if they go for it, nothing is preventing them from setting a record. Compromising their design philosophy to hit a track time, just isn't what Honda does even with as much as you want them to.

You seem far more obsessed about this than me. I mentioned it as an expression of another idea and you are the one that has latched onto that one small aspect of that post.

As far as their design philosophy goes, I'm actually curious what you think that is. You have a car that is constantly photographed on the track in promotion videos, has track records being released, and a giant wing. What exactly makes you think the design philosophy is to build a mundane sporty car exactly?

 

[TimeRacer]

Honestly, you don't need to resort to personal attacks because somebody disagrees with you.

I could be a 16 year old kid, or I could be an engineer with an extensive background in racing. Same goes for most of the people on this forum. To start telling people they don't understand things because you disagree with their ideas or opinions is short sighted.

It's not a personal attack. You're quoting a journalist with no technical experience (per the bio you link) as the definitive answer to what the capabilities adjustable dampers are. If that's your understanding, it's at best limited to the journalist's opinion. That's not an attack and I'm sorry you feel it is. Even the cherry picked quote you chose, no one is challenging it. Though even with that quote, that's referring to the 10th gen shocks. I thought you were talking about the 11th gen and going faster? Likely will need to stiffen up the suspension in some shape or form, performance doesn't come for free nor are adjustable dampers magic.

Regardless of your opinion here, the fact is that the majority of automotive journalists attribute comfort and smoothness with the addition of adaptive dampers on touring cars. I don't need to argue the technical merits of this when enough empirical evidence exists out there for you to verify it.

Adaptive dampers will make the Type-R a more comfortable touring car compared to if the dampers were not adaptive. With a more customizable drive mode, people will be able to make further adjustments that they prefer. That is my point. I am not sure what you are arguing here.

Again, refer to my post. I'm telling you exactly what's going on when you crank up the compression firmness. It's one of those things where technical knowledge is feared and even offensive for whatever reason and why you keep bringing up touring cars and now non-adjustable dampers. No one besides you is talking about non-adjustable dampers or journalists. "Empirical evidence" of what exactly? There's a race car that turns record setting laps into a comfortable daily driver for grandma because of adjustable dampers? There's limits to the band-aid even if you don't wish to understand the mechanical side. Even the CTR Limited edition is stated to be 'too rough' by many journalists (ha!) for most as a daily driver and I believe they only changed the dampening rates and not the spring rate (could very well be wrong as I didn't follow it that closely but technical details are feared here) so even the mild change is already showing issues going beyond a certain point with dampening rates.

You seem far more obsessed about this than me. I mentioned it as an expression of another idea and you are the one that has latched onto that one small aspect of that post.

yet...

As far as their design philosophy goes, I'm actually curious what you think that is. You have a car that is constantly photographed on the track in promotion videos, has track records being released, and a giant wing. What exactly makes you think the design philosophy is to build a mundane sporty car exactly?

Weird. Rhetorical question but now you're calling every car Honda has developed at best a "mundane sporty car"? As that design philosophy is part of every sports car Honda has produced (and many Lotuses for that matter). That's a pretty bleak look at how much Nurburgring FWD records mean to you. Honda's production vehicle sports car philosophy has remained consistent since the 90's until the Gen2 NSX (which is more a showcase of hybrid tech). Balance, simplicity, lightness. That's it. Never highest power. Never best 0-60 or quarter mile, never chasing another car's track times only design goals, didn't resort to crazy expensive exotic materials and soaring the price. Were they balanced and fun vehicles to drive at 8/10ths? Yep, and why Honda's were all over tracks from the 90's til today in trims from stock to crazy modifications. The simple concept of a relatively light, rev happy engine (now replaced with turbos because of regulations) with generally a double wishbone (or at least a good enough suspension) and a simple and direct steering feel, with enough leeway at the limit gave them that distinction. If you read anything about the 10th Gen Civic development it was designed by the US Honda R&D department and Honda Japan hated the design, including the "giant wing" and in part why the 11th gen is so conservative, again it's the conservative Honda Japan philosophy that's been around since the 90's. But this is the last post I'm going to make on this, this way too out in the weeds for your own personal justification. You can think what you like, as nothing is getting through. Honda's car development history is well documented. Go read some history about Shigeru Uehara and Hideki Kakinuma, their designs and contribution to Honda's core philosophies and the Type-R badge. It's all readily available if you care to know the actual history and philosophy behind Honda's "mundane" cars that have likely seen more track time than many other brands dream of.

 

[Whitboy82]

Giving some history of the era of the NSX-R and the R moniker you were speaking to. It simply wasn't trying to achieve the fastest speeds but instead an incredibly balanced car. Even the ITR and the CTR, they were first evolutions of the car they were based upon and second they were incredibly balanced but never the fastest in class in part because they weren't designed to be hairy at the limit as that's inherently part of Honda's design philosophy. They're pretty easy cars to drive at the limit since they give a good buffer in their limits instead of snap releases of some other cars. No Hellcat will ever come out of Honda's R&D facility. Additionally tried to show how a stiff ride doesn't have to be there to improve the handling but ultimately you need to eventually degrade the handling to get the lean under control. But I guess that's too technical and into the weeds, as this is from a competitive autocrosser. The Type-R's were simply refinement of the Honda formula. Lightness and simplicity going for a balanced car. Doesn't matter if it's the NSX, S2k (I know no Type-R for the S2k but part of the Honda philosophy), ITR, CTR... they've always made the Type-R changes simple (no new fancy turbo, traction control system, huge change in suspension geometry or drivetrain), refinement to the core vehicle and lighter parts. That's really all there is to the Type-R's.


That's just showing you don't understand the suspension and need a journalist, not an engineer, to tell you what to think about it. I outlined exactly what was going on in my post you quoted. They're over dampening the compression to make up for the lack of spring rate. Hence why when they 'adjust' the compression rate down it can have a better ride rather than just going for dampers matched to the spring rate. However, there is a definite limit to this band-aid. As the amount of roll the car will have is still going to be the amount of roll the car will have. The car simply loads the damper faster but it isn't a replacement for spring rate as the change in camber & caster due to the car roll eventually becomes a hindrance.

As for the track record, almost all your posts refer to it. As I've said, you're more obsessed about it than Honda is. You're even so compelled to respond to the few posts I make to say more about going for the record. If there was actually some evidence Honda was prepping a car for record attempts, cool, by all means say they're going for it. But literally every time Honda shows up on a track or in Europe, you're saying they're going for the record. It's just a broken record. In any case just like last time they're likely going to do it once the car is finalized and the wrap is off. One of a few tell tale signs they're going for it. None of those have happened yet. Great if they go for it, nothing is preventing them from setting a record. Compromising their design philosophy just to hit a track time, just isn't what Honda does even with as much as you want them to.

You can be as long winded as you like, but I think you just like regurgitating facts more than actually having a conversation, as I’ve seen by your previous responses.
I didn’t ask for a Wikipedia description on the history of Honda’s Type R program, and I don’t think you’re Ayrton Senna, I do think you have concluded that you are the only person who understands what a Type R is and isn’t, but that’s your opinion, and we are all entitled to one.

 

[ASIMO Assassin]

It's not a personal attack. You're quoting a journalist with no technical experience (per the bio you link) as the definitive answer to what the capabilities adjustable dampers are. If that's your understanding, it's at best limited to the journalist's opinion. That's not an attack and I'm sorry you feel it is. Even the cherry picked quote you chose, no one is challenging it. Though even with that quote, that's referring to the 10th gen shocks. I thought you were talking about the 11th gen and going faster? Likely will need to stiffen up the suspension in some shape or form, performance doesn't come for free nor are adjustable dampers magic.

Comfort is subjective and difficulty to quantify, which is precisely why I selected a quote from a journalist.

It was a sample, one of hundreds, of how journalists frequently credit active dampers for increased comfort.

Or are you taking issue with that and saying that active dampers that can be adjusted into comfort settings are not effective?

Again, refer to my post. I'm telling you exactly what's going on when you crank up the compression firmness. It's one of those things where technical knowledge is feared and even offensive for whatever reason and why you keep bringing up touring cars and now non-adjustable dampers. No one besides you is talking about non-adjustable dampers or journalists. "Empirical evidence" of what exactly?

If by no one, you mean everyone? Literally every journalist has at some point has linked comfort and active dampers together.

There's a race car that turns record setting laps into a comfortable daily driver for grandma because of adjustable dampers?

I don't recall saying there was. I was clear in my post that.... active dampers help improve comfort and can aid in allowing a vehicle, such as the Type-R, to walk the line between commuter car and race car.

There's limits to the band-aid even if you don't wish to understand the mechanical side. Even the CTR Limited edition is stated to be 'too rough' by many journalists (ha!) for most as a daily driver and I believe they only changed the dampening rates and not the spring rate (could very well be wrong as I didn't follow it that closely but technical details are feared here) so even the mild change is already showing issues going beyond a certain point with dampening rates.

I don't recall saying I wish to be ignorant of the mechanical side?

Honestly, it is pretty obvious that cars intended for track duty are going to be more stiff than those designed for long haul commuting.

Weird. Rhetorical question but now you're calling every car Honda has developed at best a "mundane sporty car"?

I mean, I am trying to infer what all of your posts add up to here. You basically berate anyone that talks about track ability and argue with anyone that suggests that the Type-R is any good at commuting... it sounds like you think it is a mundane sports car. I am happy you took the time to respond so I can understand where you are coming from.

As that design philosophy is part of every sports car Honda has produced (and many Lotuses for that matter). That's a pretty bleak look at how much Nurburgring FWD records mean to you. Honda's production vehicle sports car philosophy has remained consistent since the 90's until the Gen2 NSX (which is more a showcase of hybrid tech). Balance, simplicity, lightness. That's it. Never highest power. Never best 0-60 or quarter mile, never chasing another car's track times only design goals, didn't resort to crazy expensive exotic materials and soaring the price. Were they balanced and fun vehicles to drive at 8/10ths? Yep, and why Honda's were all over tracks from the 90's til today in trims from stock to crazy modifications. The simple concept of a relatively light, rev happy engine (now replaced with turbos because of regulations) with generally a double wishbone (or at least a good enough suspension) and a simple and direct steering feel, with enough leeway at the limit gave them that distinction. If you read anything about the 10th Gen Civic development it was designed by the US Honda R&D department and Honda Japan hated the design, including the "giant wing" and in part why the 11th gen is so conservative, again it's the conservative Honda Japan philosophy that's been around since the 90's. But this is the last post I'm going to make on this, this way too out in the weeds for your own personal justification. You can think what you like, as nothing is getting through. Honda's car development history is well documented. Go read some history about Shigeru Uehara and Hideki Kakinuma, their designs and contribution to Honda's core philosophies and the Type-R badge. It's all readily available if you care to know the actual history and philosophy behind Honda's "mundane" cars that have likely seen more track time than many other brands dream of.

I see, so basically you think there is a secret hidden design philosophy that only you know about. Honda promoting it driving on a track, or breaking records, or being the most powerful Type-R ever.... all smoke and mirrors

 

[FK7_]

I love every new reveal on car forums cause there is always 2 crazy people fighting about something ridiculous like suspension on a car with no details given yet lol

 

[tuhroo]

and it usually comes from people who 1. have never owned a type r or 2. will not even get the car

 

[TimeRacer]

I don’t know if that’s a completely accurate statement. Maybe to people only old enough to really know the FK8, but if you go back through the overall history of the Type R, from the NSX, Integra, and Civic, it’s pretty easy to see that your viewpoint is a fairly new one. All of those vehicles were meant to be a race car for the road, honoring their racing accomplishments.

You can be as long winded as you like, but I think you just like regurgitating facts more than actually having a conversation, as I’ve seen by your previous responses.
I didn’t ask for a Wikipedia description on the history of Honda’s Type R program, and I don’t think you’re Ayrton Senna, I do think you have concluded that you are the only person who understands what a Type R is and isn’t, but that’s your opinion, and we are all entitled to one.

Weird. Never made any claims to be the 'only' person who understands what a Type-R is or any claim to be Ayrton Senna or anyone associated with these programs. That's all high levels of justification for things no one has made claims to. The philosophy comes from the lead designer for the NSX, NSX-R, ITR, CTR and his dream car project, the S2000 through the histories of those cars he helped create. Again, I don't know why people take Honda's published history as such threat especially after making their own accusations and judgements, even citing Honda's history [red] yet be so offended by it. The funny thing is I've been fortunate enough to own a few of these and put time into them both as street and track cars. But I get you don't want to hear about history or personal experience. You gotta do you.


Trying to pull this back... ignoring the exterior and track performance, what is one trait you hope Honda adds on the new Type-R? Something like the volume knob they did during the mid-cycle refresh or simply more control over the drive modes or a custom mode or some interior issue you had with the FK8.

 

[Whitboy82]

Weird. Never made any claims to be the 'only' person who understands what a Type-R is or any claim to be Ayrton Senna or anyone associated with these programs. That's all high levels of justification for things no one has made claims to. The philosophy comes from the lead designer for the NSX, NSX-R, ITR, CTR and his dream car project, the S2000 through the histories of those cars he helped create. Again, I don't know why people take Honda's published history as such threat especially after making their own accusations and judgements, even citing Honda's history [red] yet be so offended by it. The funny thing is I've been fortunate enough to own a few of these and put time into them both as street and track cars. But I get you don't want to hear about history or personal experience. You gotta do you.


Trying to pull this back... ignoring the exterior and track performance, what is one trait you hope Honda adds on the new Type-R? Something like the volume knob they did during the mid-cycle refresh or simply more control over the drive modes or a custom mode or some interior issue you had with the FK8.

This is the original statement I responded to.

“But I'm sure none of this matters, you'll still think Honda is record chasing which most people don't want as they don't want to climb in a car with race car firmness/personality as their primary driver and has never been what the Type-R is about.”

I responded and said, I didn’t agree, and that most of the Type R variants of regular NSXs, Integras, Civics, were designed as “track ready” variants of their milder siblings…

Since then you’ve said a whole lot, and it’s nice you know the entire history of Honda and it’s Type R branding, and that you’ve owned a bunch of Hondas, and that you track them, etc etc I just don’t know what all that has to do with my simple point?

Most of those cars, were designed as “track ready” variants of their milder base vehicles. Am, I wrong? Because I’d sure like to go ask Tsuchiya and his fellow drivers, why they wasted their time with all those R model Hondas on all the Best Motoring videos I watched, when I was younger.

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