Market for a more extreme Type R variant

[Cueyo]

Much of this sentiment I agree with, and it's part of the reason I think that many people spending $80k+ total on an FL5 build wouldn't necessarily be the same people spending $80k+ on an OEM offering from Honda (although I'm sure they'd be among its biggest fans). A huge aspect to the hardcore FL5/DE5 builds (and of modifying cars in general) is the individual character or that build in particular. Part of the motivation is that it's your version of unique, so-to-speak.


The interior of the ITS is nicer, but I don't think you can say that the FL5 interior isn't dailyable, either. It's nicer than standard trim Civics, which are only bought to daily, so it feels weird to me to count that against the FL5 re: being dailyable.

Your point about the seats is valid, to some extent, but I think a lot of that hinges on build / preference. Personally, the FL5 seats don't qualify as hardcore enough a bucket to detract from dailyability for me, although I will say my experience with them is always for short periods of time, so I can't speak to the roadtrip experience, and I'll defer to you there.

That said, the sound deadening aspect of the ITS is overblown. Reviewers parrot it because it's part of the marketing material from Acura, and it does have a bit more than the Type-R, but as someone who has ripped the entire interior out of their ITS to apply effective acoustic treatment because they wanted to be able to have a conversation with those riding in back, I can tell you it's a couple of 8"x8" squares of rigid foam that are maybe 5mm thick. It makes some difference, sure, but it's really hardly anything. The sound deadening in the ITS is a joke, and it's one of the biggest complaints from ITS owners who thought they were buying a luxury car and didn't realize they were buying a Civic with a vinyl interior on par with "EXL" Hondas (or w/e the trim line is now).



Toyota is making 750 GRMN Corolla's worldwide (check that -- that's based off memory). I think that's relevant to this discussion. It, too, will be a collector's item.

The WRX TS comes in at less than the FL5, and the Elantra N TCR comes in at sub-$40k (all pre-ADM, of course). That puts them at approx. half of what Honda would presumably charge for something like this. They're competing with the existing FL5 / DE5, not Porsches, M cars, etc. I don't think you can use them as a good comparison for what is being discussed here.

The nice interior was just something to add to the pile, not really something that prevents it from being a good daily. As a sidenote, the interiors themselves imo are already pretty good in the civics.

My point on the track oriented trims of those other cars was to say that demand is there. If there are only 15-20k type Rs out there, 1000 isn't a stretch for a special edition on a car that has proven to sell special editions (LE trim ok the previous gen) already. And Honda would sell these out instantly.

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[Cueyo]

I don’t know if there’s a way to know if the Type R makes money. The cost of R&D, the unique engine, body panels, chassis components etc, the manufacture in Japan and the logistics that go with that, lead me to believe it probably does NOT make money in the traditional sense (profit on each unit sold). The value to the brand is where I think these special vehicles (and all the racing involvement) potentially “make money.”

US Civic Sales in 2025: 238,661 (from Honda Digital Factbook)
US Type R sales in 2025: not called out, but the sales in 2023 were 1.7% of Civics (Motor1.com)

If that holds at 2%, they would have sold less than 5,000 in the US last year. Compare that to over 600,000 CRVs sold.

I feel like a lotta people conflate using the 11th gen as a base for the type R as being the same as slapping a spoiler and a turbo on a civic sport hatch. Every body panel except the hatch is unique to the FL5, the suspension is unique, parts of the frame are unique. The cabin is the only major thing it shares with its lower trim counterparts. Doesn't mean it's a bespoke sports car, but also not really a parts bin special.

 

[CG13]

Much of this sentiment I agree with, and it's part of the reason I think that many people spending $80k+ total on an FL5 build wouldn't necessarily be the same people spending $80k+ on an OEM offering from Honda (although I'm sure they'd be among its biggest fans). A huge aspect to the hardcore FL5/DE5 builds (and of modifying cars in general) is the individual character or that build in particular. Part of the motivation is that it's your version of unique, so-to-speak.

I think you could find enough people to buy an OEM hardcore version (maybe 500-1000 units) and still leave enough sales volume available for those who want to build their own. Use the HRC version in all the ads, all the comparison tests, etc. Sell some/all of the parts à la carte for regular FL5 owners.

One of the reasons I chose the FL5 was because it has headroom for modifications, but it could be a LOT closer to track ready from the factory. I’d be happy, and would possibly upgrade, if they’d do a 2027 model refresh to all Type R’s with factory coil-overs with adjustable camber, rear sway bar, and rock solid track-ready oil and water cooling.

 

[ABPDE5]

The nice interior was just something to add to the pile, not really something that prevents it from being a good daily. As a sidenote, the interiors themselves imo are already pretty good in the civics.

My point on the track oriented trims of those other cars was to say that demand is there. If there are only 15-20k type Rs out there, 1000 isn't a stretch for a special edition on a car that has proven to sell special editions (LE trim ok the previous gen) already. And Honda would sell these out instantly.

There are something like 50k+ FL5s out there (maybe 15k in NA). If they made 1k of a special edition, yes, they'd sell instantly. Most would have absurd ADMs and would never get tracked . The "trackable" element might be part of the appeal, but the "I have something (most) nobody else does" would be more of it.

I think you could find enough people to buy an OEM hardcore version (maybe 500-1000 units) and still leave enough sales volume available for those who want to build their own. Use the HRC version in all the ads, all the comparison tests, etc. Sell some/all of the parts à la carte for regular FL5 owners.

One of the reasons I chose the FL5 was because it has headroom for modifications, but it could be a LOT closer to track ready from the factory. I’d be happy, and would possibly upgrade, if they’d do a 2027 model refresh to all Type R’s with factory coil-overs with adjustable camber, rear sway bar, and rock solid track-ready oil and water cooling.

500-1000, I agree with. And camber plates, sway bars, coils, oil coolers they could theoretically market for $65k, which is probably the ceiling for something they could market more broadly.

I just don't see Honda doing this, unfortunately. Look at the HRC parts experience so far for insight into Honda's current direction on things like this.
The HRC parts were announced 2 years ago. They're still nowhere to be seen in terms of availability. The parts they showcased a year ago were all parts developed by reputable third parties (like Acuity, KW, and RV6) with "HRC" stickers on top + a markup, meaning there's been absolute minimal investment on Honda's part (most of these parts were run in TC cars, etc. so even testing was done previously for a different purpose). They just do not seem interested in investing further in this segment of the market. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

 

[Higgs Boson]

This is the first time I'm hearing about this, my understanding was that profit was built into MSRP. Dealer markups also are incredibly common. I was basing the idea that Honda doesn't turn on a profit on the type R from other car companies that use their halo model to get people in the door (ie: nsx, lfa, etc).

Profit is built into MSRP so yes, if a dealer sells the car at MSRP or above they make a "profit." However, once you want free floormats, the salesperson makes a couple bucks, the cost of a detail, tank of gas, PDI, etc is paid, the few hundred dollar profit in a Civic is long gone. God forbid the customer gets a discount, it's over, lol.

I don’t know if there’s a way to know if the Type R makes money. The cost of R&D, the unique engine, body panels, chassis components etc, the manufacture in Japan and the logistics that go with that, lead me to believe it probably does NOT make money in the traditional sense (profit on each unit sold). The value to the brand is where I think these special vehicles (and all the racing involvement) potentially “make money.”

US Civic Sales in 2025: 238,661 (from Honda Digital Factbook)
US Type R sales in 2025: not called out, but the sales in 2023 were 1.7% of Civics (Motor1.com)

If that holds at 2%, they would have sold less than 5,000 in the US last year. Compare that to over 600,000 CRVs sold.

It's a 50k dollar Civic. It's profitable. Its not a Pagani. The engine is not unique, its a tuned Accord engine. There is little to no R&D as its based on a super mass produced car. Sales volume has nothing to do with profit per unit. Honda makes their money when they wholesale the car to the dealer.

 

[Cueyo]

There are something like 50k+ FL5s out there (maybe 15k in NA). If they made 1k of a special edition, yes, they'd sell instantly. Most would have absurd ADMs and would never get tracked . The "trackable" element might be part of the appeal, but the "I have something (most) nobody else does" would be more of it.



500-1000, I agree with. And camber plates, sway bars, coils, oil coolers they could theoretically market for $65k, which is probably the ceiling for something they could market more broadly.

I just don't see Honda doing this, unfortunately. Look at the HRC parts experience so far for insight into Honda's current direction on things like this.
The HRC parts were announced 2 years ago. They're still nowhere to be seen in terms of availability. The parts they showcased a year ago were all parts developed by reputable third parties (like Acuity, KW, and RV6) with "HRC" stickers on top + a markup, meaning there's been absolute minimal investment on Honda's part (most of these parts were run in TC cars, etc. so even testing was done previously for a different purpose). They just do not seem interested in investing further in this segment of the market. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

The most disappointing part about the HRC parts was that they didn't even try to hide the third party manufacturer designs. I think only a set of wheels had a unique design.

 

[ABPDE5]

The engine is not unique, its a tuned Accord engine.

I will be the first to tell you the engine in this car does not live up to the standard set by Type-Rs built 15-25 years ago, but this is not entirely fair.

The block and crank are the same as the configuration featured in the Accord. But, the rods are different, the pistons are different (in fact different from the FK8), the cams are different, the turbo is different, the fuel system is different, the oil pump is different, the ECU is different, etc. The transmission is different. There is substantial development and production overlap, but it is not just a tune, and the relatively small number of C1/C8 motors made adds to the cost relative to the configuration previously used in the Accord / TLX, etc. Additionally, it's no longer an option in the Accord, and the TLX is dead. I think the only other car the block is shared with now is the RDX.

 

[Higgs Boson]

I will be the first to tell you the engine in this car does not live up to the standard set by Type-Rs built 15-25 years ago, but this is not entirely fair. The block and crank are the same as the configuration featured in the Accord. But, the pistons are different (in fact different from the FK8), the cams are different, the turbo is different, the fuel system is different, the ECU is different, etc. The transmission is different. There is substantial development and production overlap, but it is not just a tune, and the relatively small number of C1/C8 motors made adds to the cost relative to the configuration previously used in the Accord / TLX, etc. Additionally, it's no longer an option in the Accord, and the TLX is dead. I think the only other car the block is shared with now is the RDX.

Fair enough I did say "tuned" but I don't consider only computer recalibration to be tuning. A tune up used to be changing points, plugs, filters, etc. What can I say, I guess I am getting old, but I will always be in denial about it.

What I was getting at is that the engine, the architecture, firing order, etc is an Accord engine. I've been racing NHRA Super Stock for 30 years, maybe swapping pistons, camshafts, and injectors just isn't that big of a deal to me, but its also not the same as upgrading your existing car.....the original parts don't have to be paid for and discarded for upgraded parts, it's only the small incremental price difference (if any at all) to go to the specc'd part for the Type R.

My point is, these changes are not being done as a charity to "enthusiasts." There's no need to put the pssy on a pedastal. Honda is a for profit business. It's silly to think Honda is taking losses so we can have a slightly faster 4 door with a wing. Just my 2. If one wants to think they are driving the holy grail, that's fine, but so does every other group of performance enthusiasts.

 

[ABPDE5]

My point is, these changes are not being done as a charity to "enthusiasts." There's no need to put the pssy on a pedastal. Honda is a for profit business. It's silly to think Honda is taking losses so we can have a slightly faster 4 door with a wing. Just my 2. If one wants to think they are driving the holy grail, that's fine, but so does every other group of performance enthusiasts.

This, I am with you on 100%.

It's why I jumped into this discussion to defend someone pointing out the platform's weaknesses and why I don't think we'll get anything like this thread is largely clamoring for -- unless it's a production run of 500-1000 cars for nearly double the FL5's original MSRP, sold as a collectible item to those willing to finance massive ADMs. Honda is already overcharging for this platform given its objective performance relative to the market.

This is why I cited the HRC parts as an example for how Honda is operating in this segment: years of teasing, zero development, and markups for products other companies designed, tested, and have already been selling for years.

 

[Cueyo]

The engine is not unique, its a tuned Accord engine.

This is the other way around, the k20c1 was developed first (2015 type R) , then the c3 (some Chinese variant car), then c4 (accord), and then c6 (tlx). It was proven in the type R for like 3 years before the accord got it. More like an type R engine tuned down for the accord after the changed the head.

 

[Higgs Boson]

This is the other way around, the k20c1 was developed first (2015 type R) , then the c3 (some Chinese variant car), then c4 (accord), and then c6 (tlx). It was proven in the type R for like 4 years before the accord got it.

So its also extremely dated, great. I'm surprised it doesn't have a carburator.

 

[Cueyo]

So its also extremely dated, great. I'm surprised it doesn't have a carburator.

Classic Honda rolling with an engine design for a decade (though in engineering that's a good thing, something something kaizen), wait until you hear about that turbocharged 1.5L engine. Started life as a 89hp NA engine in the Honda fit, then Honda added 100hp in boost and wonder why it blows head gaskets every other week 🫠

 

[thatonedaveguy]

So its also extremely dated, great. I'm surprised it doesn't have a carburator.

It's still by a country mile, the greatest turbo 4 in production today.

You drive literally any other turbo 4 including that 416hp AMG merc and the engine runs out of breath far before the redline. CTR just pulls hard all the way to the upshift- it's a unique characteristic of this engine that you do not get on any other turbo 4 and I would not expect any enthusiast to so easily forget lol..

 

[CG13]

This, I am with you on 100%.

It's why I jumped into this discussion to defend someone pointing out the platform's weaknesses and why I don't think we'll get anything like this thread is largely clamoring for -- unless it's a production run of 500-1000 cars for nearly double the FL5's original MSRP, sold as a collectible item to those willing to finance massive ADMs. Honda is already overcharging for this platform given its objective performance relative to the market.

This is why I cited the HRC parts as an example for how Honda is operating in this segment: years of teasing, zero development, and markups for products other companies designed, tested, and have already been selling for years.

Honda is a for-profit business, yes. That doesn’t mean every product generates profit or a sustainable business model on its own.

Honda is not overcharging for the FL5 unless they can’t sell them. Price never will scale with “objective performance“ because: 1) the price is set by the market, which is subjective and 2) “performance” is not objective until you subjectively define it as well—> the FL5 is part of a very small number of new manual transmission cars, and an even smaller number with four doors and the associated cargo room that affords. If that’s the market, which “performance” figures do you use to objectively compare it to others in that market?

The question for the thread was not about what people think of the FL5, whether they track it or use it to haul their elderly mother around at sub-3k RPM (see a recent ridiculous 5W30 thread), or whether they think it’s priced well against other cars. The thread is about whether there would be a market for a track-oriented version in limited quantities and the associated higher pricing.

The answer seems to be about as expected: Mostly ”no” but there are some “yes” answers as well. You’d only need about 10% of existing buyers to sell 500 and I would bet a lot of parts would sell to existing Type R owners, and maybe attract a few more buyers for those cars, knowing they have an OEM aftermarket path. Ducati does this well with very few V4R sold, but a lot of V4 and V4S with trickle down tech and parts options.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Honda is a for-profit business, yes. That doesn’t mean every product generates profit or a sustainable business model on its own.

Honda is not overcharging for the FL5 unless they can’t sell them. Price never will scale with “objective performance“ because: 1) the price is set by the market, which is subjective and 2) “performance” is not objective until you subjectively define it as well—> the FL5 is part of a very small number of new manual transmission cars, and an even smaller number with four doors and the associated cargo room that affords. If that’s the market, which “performance” figures do you use to objectively compare it to others in that market?

The question for the thread was not about what people think of the FL5, whether they track it or use it to haul their elderly mother around at sub-3k RPM (see a recent ridiculous 5W30 thread), or whether they think it’s priced well against other cars. The thread is about whether there would be a market for a track-oriented version in limited quantities and the associated higher pricing.

The answer seems to be about as expected: Mostly ”no” but there are some “yes” answers as well. You’d only need about 10% of existing buyers to sell 500 and I would bet a lot of parts would sell to existing Type R owners, and maybe attract a few more buyers for those cars, knowing they have an OEM aftermarket path. Ducati does this well with very few V4R sold, but a lot of V4 and V4S with trickle down tech and parts options.

Yes it does mean they need to make a profit on it, they have to answer to shareholders. The automotive climate today is getting tough, no room for fluff. Layoffs are happening with German brands, Honda just took a 16B loss from EV BS.

Again, the retail price is set between dealers and customers, has nothing to do with Honda. Once the car hits dealer inventory (typically before it even arrives at the store) Honda has made their profit. Now its the dealer's problem (or blessing).

The FL5 is amazing, the only reason I have one is because it is manual, has enough back seat space to fit my 7 and 8 year old kids, and is still a fun little car to drive as a "short distance daily" and I probably wont go to jail if I floor it, so it has a place for sure. If it looked like the FK8, was a two door, or was basically anything other than exactly what it is I would never have noticed it exists.

Which brings us to the reason there is no market for a 90-100k Civic....what percent of Civics are Type R, you answered that. What percent of Type R are tracked (I would say more than once or twice as it can be a novelty for some people to taste)? And finally, of those that track their Type R regularly, what percent want to spend so much money on one that will be arguably compromised and less usable in an every day capacity?

V4 is 30k?
Ducati V4S is what, 38k (26% more than non S)
V4R is 50K? 32% more than S and 67% more than non S

Civic base 25k
Type R 50k (already 100% more than base)
SuperDuper Civic 90k (360% more than base)

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