Racing the FL5 Type R with all OEM spec parts on Laguna Seca

[johnloov]

Holy shit I don't have time to read all that but I can see you talking about toe an awful lot. Whats your camber?

The camber is about -1.8 negative in front. It's the stock suspension with Camber pins removed

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[johnloov]

Check this. Was 35 psi cold nitrogen filed too low? I was tracking on 35/32 @tezzasaurusrex


After inflating it to 45 psi, to check tread wear - I noticed the outside is higher - should I have been running higher psi to get even wear and zero toe. I’m understanding the 4s side walls were too weak and needed more psi. And 2MM total toe out started to scrub the inside tires. What does the tire wear tell us.

 

[Rhorn]

Going to 45 psi and then tracking your car just seems extremely dangerous.

 

[johnloov]

Going to 45 psi and then tracking your car just seems extremely dangerous.

The car was not tracked at 45psi -

35 psi cold front 32 cold rear

We pumped it up to 45 psi - to take a look at tread wear.

 

[johnloov]

Update 4s vs Cup 2 Connect - Day and night sidewall stiffness difference.



Unfortunately my dealership ordered the wrong CUP 2, instead of the CUP 2 HO - Honda Optimized - Then he cut me a killer deal, so had to take them. They gave me 40% of the total price of the 4s as credit from Michelin. The Cup 2 connects were about $50 cheaper each ~$200 dollars total - than the HO versions, and he took half off for labor.

Supposedly the Cup 2 HO version have about 10% stiffer side walls than Cup 2 Connects.

One positive is the Cup 2 Connect -- is supposedly it can take more heat cycles, and laps consistently without performance falling off as much as the HO and normal Cup 2's - longer tread life.

Let's see......


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Key Differences
1. Design and Purpose

• Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 H0:
  • Type: OE-specific track tire, custom-engineered for Honda Civic Type R (FK8 Limited Edition, FL5). The "H0" marking indicates Honda’s bespoke tuning.
  • Purpose: Optimized for FWD performance—sharper turn-in, reduced understeer, and enhanced grip for the FL5’s helical LSD and 310 lb-ft torque. Built for track dominance with street legality.
  • Treadwear (TW): ~180–200 (lower than Connect, per Michelin’s OE specs).
• Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Connect:
  • Type: Aftermarket evolution of the standard Cup 2, not OE-specific—designed for broader track and street use with tech integration (Track Connect sensors optional).
  • Purpose: Balances track performance with improved street longevity and consistency—marketed as a “streetable track tire” with better wear and wet grip than the original Cup 2.
  • Treadwear (TW): 240 (higher than H0, meets racing “street category” rules, per Michelin USA).

2. Construction and Compound

• H0:
  • Sidewall: Stiffer than standard Cup 2—tuned for Type R suspension and FWD dynamics (CivicX FK8: “H0 tauter”).
  • Compound: Dual-compound with a softer outer tread for FWD bite, firmer inner for stability—track-focused, less forgiving on street (CivicXI FL5: “H0 grips hard when hot”).
  • Tread Depth: ~7/32nds new—shallower, prioritizes dry grip over wet longevity.
• Connect:
  • Sidewall: Stiff, but less so than H0—more compliant for street comfort (CivicXI: “Connect flexes slightly vs. H0”).
  • Compound: Multi-Compound Technology 2.0—new elastomer blend improves dry grip consistency and wet performance over the original Cup 2, less aggressive than H0’s FWD tune (Michelin USA: “Connect excels in long stints”).
  • Tread Depth: ~7.2/32nds new—deeper, aids wear and wet traction (Tire Rack review).

3. Performance

• H0:
  • Dry Grip: Exceptional initial bite—~1.05 friction coefficient, FWD-optimized (FK8 LE: 1:50.6 Sonoma). Your 2mm toe-out “perfect turn-in” scales up with H0’s sharpness.
  • Wet Grip: Minimal—shallow tread, track-first design (CivicXI FL5: “H0 struggles in rain”).
  • Track: ~0.2–0.5s faster per lap vs. standard Cup 2—H0’s edge shines with R5 pads (Turn 1 braking: ~0.3s).
• Connect:
  • Dry Grip: High, consistent grip—slightly less peak bite than H0 (~1.0–1.05), but lasts longer (Tire Rack: “Connect excels in heat cycles”).
  • Wet Grip: Better than H0—deeper tread and elastomer tweak improve hydroplaning resistance (CivicXI: “Connect tolerable in showers”).
  • Track: Fast—~0.2s behind H0 per lap, but more predictable over sessions (Michelin: “7.4s faster after 15 laps vs. Track Connect study”).

4. Wear and Longevity

• H0:
  • ~3–5 track days with rotation—your 1,000-mile swaps align (CivicX FK8: “H0 wears quick on fronts”). Your front right radial wear at 2mm toe-out/35 psi cold reflects this—H0 prioritizes speed over life.
• Connect:
  • ~5–7 track days—240 TW and deeper tread extend life ~20–30% over H0 (Tire Rack: “Connect wears better”). Less front right wear risk with your setup.

 

[johnloov]

New Alignment specs:

 

[madbikes]

That alignment looks like how I'd like to drive around, which would be fine on the street. I would put more front camber based on how your tire wear, but you'd like to be as close to stock spec as possible.

Tell us more after you get some laps with the Cup 2.

 

[johnloov]

More interesting fun facts. Spoke with Michelin, they actually said the Cup 2 Connect should be the same as the Honda HO, and they are both improved versions of the Cup 2.

Here is some more information that validated that:



https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/michelin-pilot-sport-cup-2-connect-tire-review-test

And TheTopher's CUP 2's Honda gave him after a Type R track day, do say Connect, and match my tires exact numbers. . So maybe these are the same as the HO's?

March 15th we should have new lap times.

Drove it back on some canyon carving, the car feels superior to the 4s, planted, turn in is superior, feel is superior. 4S has very soft side walls can't take the G Forces this car handle. Feels amazing so far. Maybe too much toe in, in the rear, but we will see on Track soon

What's for sure known knowns - is both the Cup 2 Connect and Cup 2 HO ( Honda Optimized ) are improvements over the previous gen CUP2, but I'm not totally sure yet if the HO version is a bit different. They both have the same tread pattern, which is different than normal cup 2's

 

[madbikes]

Even though the tread pattern is identical, the HO version may have a different compound layout/setup than the standard Cup2 and should have "HO" stamped somewhere on the sidewall. You will have to drive both versions and see if you can tell the difference.

 

[J1Avs]

The HO will definitely have HO stamped on the sidewall. I've had them.

They are also both 240TW...the HO is not lower treadwear.

Keep an eye on the center out rib...it's going to get torn up with understeer. Kinda standard Cup2 bullsh*t, but it's amplified on FWD with minimal camber

 

[johnloov]

Thanks @J1Avs, will keep an eye on it - What PSI do you recommend cold front and rear? What worked best for you?

I did realize I had close to zero toe on the rear previously, and is why maybe I didn't feel understeer. I did have 2.5mm toe out total in front and close to zero rear - and now it's Zero toe in front and 1.5MM toe in on rear and can feel it does feel this could cause it to understeer.

I'll find out soon on track.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

The camber is about -1.8 negative in front. It's the stock suspension with Camber pins removed

So what exactly are you asking me?

 

[johnloov]

Do you still recommend zero to on stock suspension with pins out -1.8 negative camber in front, or a touch of toe out, and is 1.5mm toe in on rear too much? I understand with more than -2 negative camber, everything should be closer to zero all the way around.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

Do you still recommend zero to on stock suspension with pins out -1.8 negative camber in front, or a touch of toe out, and is 1.5mm toe in on rear too much? I understand with more than -2 negative camber, everything should be closer to zero all the way around.

I don't know if I've ever recommended -1.8° or any amount of toe out on the car, not sure why you ended up running this set up.
The separation of rubber on the outside shoulders is a clear indication of excessive load and heat, so you need to run more negative camber.
Read my build thread if you want to see what I'm running on my own car.

 

[johnloov]

1) Honda Ultimate Engine Oil Analysis - Looking Excellent - After 3 Track Days - Aluminum is down to 5ppm in total, but really it's down to 3ppm as the virgin oil has about 2ppm of aluminum in the fresh oil.

2) Engine Temps decreasing? - What's interesting is my car used to get up to 279F oil temp when new, the last oil change it max I saw was ~257F, and today at Laguna Seca, with the newest oil change, ~247F max on track..... hmmmm

3) Cup 2's - Very good, but many are right, they get nuked pretty quickly, but they did help me put up easily put up two best lap times PB ~1 second faster 1.44.7 Laguna Seca

4) Front Toe Zero + 1.5mm in rear - Very stable, but did loose 1-2 seconds especially in Turn 6 - Where 1-2MM toe out would really help, and maybe need to bring the rear toe back to close to zero. With the 4s's I had almost zero toe in rear from factory looks like, and I had 2.5mm toe out in front. I think I need to bring the rear into maybe .5MM toe in total and ~1.5mm toe out in front - I had the tire pressures too high 35psi cold front - 32psi cold rear - which worked on the 4s, but with the Cup 2, it ripped up the center of the tire. Really unsure about the Cup 2' Connects... more data needed

5) Lap Times Looks like the stock FL5 with Cup2's knocks off a few seconds easily. The stock car can probably run 1.41s-1.43s stock all day with Cup2's or better tires at Laugna Seca. Heavily modified FL5s with suspensions, aero, race tires, oil coolers, tunes. etc.. are running 1.39-1.41s

The stock FL5 is amazing - You don't need to do much - Just change the oil - and drive it

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