A Preview of Next-Gen Civic Powertrain

[TypeSiR]

For better or for worse, we’ll see more of these on the track in about a year. CTR is also mentioned in the article:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...-electric-car-speed-record-at-the-nurburgring

As a car enthusiast, I’m super stoked, regardless of brand.

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[hoodlum]

Honda announced today that all models in Europe will be EV or Hybrids by 2022 with the Accord happening in 2020 and the Civic in 2021. This will likely coincide with the next gen platforms. I doubt we will see significant future investment in non-hybrid engines in NA, so I would expect just a carryover with incremental improvements.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/honda-electrify-european-line-2022-not-2025

 

[Design]

The adoption rate will likely be much slower in NA. I would not expect this to trickle down for another decade, at least.

The US has and continues to lead the world in fuel affordability:
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/#20193:United-States:USD:g

 

[charleswrivers]

The 54.5 CAFE target in 2025 might speed thing along if they don’t modify/postpone it, @Design. Agreed, adjusted for inflation, fuel is still quite cheap most places in the US.

 

[Gruber]

Clarity, either EV or PHEV, weighs over 1000 lbs more than my HB ST, while not having any more space inside, rather a bit less. That's over 1/3 more mass. That's 2020 Honda Pilot 2WD. Not exactly a swift car. My CR-V is lighter than the Clarity hybrid.

Even though the torque is sufficient for low speed jolts, clearly the Clarity hybrid's max total (ICE + electric) horsepower of 211 hp is going to feel a bit weaker than my 180 hp. The Clarity EV's electric motor is actually smaller than the PHEV's electric motor. At 161 hp max in a 4000 lb + car it's going to feel a bit sluggish at speed compared to any ICE civicx.

Also the gas mileage of the hybrid on long trips is not going to be any better than any current non-R ICE civic.

For a short-drive commuter who drives to work and back the whole winter a hybrid seems perfect but.... what if you don't use any gas and it lingers in the tank for months? Then maybe the EV is better, but for most people it would mean they need two cars or at least three in a family......

Altogether, I like it that they keep developing those golf carts, and some are fun, but not to the degree that I would actually consider buying one now.

The 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded this month for the development of lithium-ion batteries. Unfortunately, these batteries are not quite sufficient in my opinion to fully replace the immortal ICE in cars. And they are not new - one of the recipients is 97 years old. Besides incremental improvements, nothing important has happened in the car battery technology since then.
Wake me up when a new revolutionary battery appears. Until then.. I will stay on ICE.

 

[ulieq]

The adoption rate will likely be much slower in NA. I would not expect this to trickle down for another decade, at least.

The US has and continues to lead the world in fuel affordability:
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/#20193:United-States:USD:g

Na. The new hybrids, like toyota, are faster and more powerful than the gas models. The transition will be extremely fast once the automaker commits and stop putting gas models on the lots.

 

[turbo lover]

Clarity, either EV or PHEV, weighs over 1000 lbs more than my HB ST, while not having any more space inside, rather a bit less. That's over 1/3 more mass. That's 2020 Honda Pilot 2WD. Not exactly a swift car. My CR-V is lighter than the Clarity hybrid.

Honda Insight might be a more direct comparison for the Civic than the Honda Clarity. Insight LX weighs around 200 pounds more than Civic LX, and has similar acceleration.

 

[charleswrivers]

Honda Insight might be a more direct comparison for the Civic than the Honda Clarity. Insight LX weighs around 200 pounds more than Civic LX, and has similar acceleration.

The Insight gets 52 MPG combined... making it close to meeting 2025 CAFE now.

I read about it when they were released and the way you could tailor the hybrid system to work the way you want was pretty neat.

 

[turbo lover]

The Insight gets 52 MPG combined... making it close to meeting 2025 CAFE now.

I read about it when they were released and the way you could tailor the hybrid system to work the way you want was pretty neat.

The Insight gets 70 MPG on the CAFE scale, CAFE is based on Unadjusted EPA results. You can download the EPA datafile at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/download.shtml and look at the "Comb Unadj FE" column to see how cars are rated on the CAFE scale.

 

[Design]

Clarity, either EV or PHEV, weighs over 1000 lbs more than my HB ST, while not having any more space inside, rather a bit less. That's over 1/3 more mass. That's 2020 Honda Pilot 2WD. Not exactly a swift car. My CR-V is lighter than the Clarity hybrid.

Even though the torque is sufficient for low speed jolts, clearly the Clarity hybrid's max total (ICE + electric) horsepower of 211 hp is going to feel a bit weaker than my 180 hp. The Clarity EV's electric motor is actually smaller than the PHEV's electric motor. At 161 hp max in a 4000 lb + car it's going to feel a bit sluggish at speed compared to any ICE civicx.

Also the gas mileage of the hybrid on long trips is not going to be any better than any current non-R ICE civic.

For a short-drive commuter who drives to work and back the whole winter a hybrid seems perfect but.... what if you don't use any gas and it lingers in the tank for months? Then maybe the EV is better, but for most people it would mean they need two cars or at least three in a family......

Altogether, I like it that they keep developing those golf carts, and some are fun, but not to the degree that I would actually consider buying one now.

The 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded this month for the development of lithium-ion batteries. Unfortunately, these batteries are not quite sufficient in my opinion to fully replace the immortal ICE in cars. And they are not new - one of the recipients is 97 years old. Besides incremental improvements, nothing important has happened in the car battery technology since then.
Wake me up when a new revolutionary battery appears. Until then.. I will stay on ICE.

I agree. Hybrid has its advantages for shorter trips in city environments. They do not hold a huge advantage (yet) over their TCDI counterparts for both net performance and usability. What they gain in torque/efficiency, they lose in cabin volume and curb weight. Europe is a goldmine for Honda because fuel costs (relative to income) are high, and a much larger percent of the driving population does short commutes.

Honda attempted to break into the enthusiast market several years ago with the CR-Z. It's a great platform that performed reasonably well. But the improvements they saw in throttle response and fuel efficiency, were overshadowed by its weight distribution and net interior volume.

IMHO, battery weight/volume is the single biggest detractor for hybrids (but it's getting better).

 

[charleswrivers]

The Insight gets 70 MPG on the CAFE scale, CAFE is based on Unadjusted EPA results. You can download the EPA datafile at https://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/download.shtml and look at the "Comb Unadj FE" column to see how cars are rated on the CAFE scale.

I’ll check it out. Thanks.

 

[Gruber]

Honda Insight might be a more direct comparison for the Civic than the Honda Clarity. Insight LX weighs around 200 pounds more than Civic LX, and has similar acceleration.

Yes, but the Insight is strictly a hybrid not an electric car because it has a tiny battery. It will also not keep up with a 1.5T civic. It will save you a little fuel money and that's about it.

"The setup provides a combined 151 horsepower, which motivates the Insight from zero to 60 mph in 7.7 seconds. It can run on its electric propulsion motor alone for roughly one mile at lower speeds...."

 

[Gruber]

The Insight gets 52 MPG combined... making it close to meeting 2025 CAFE now.

I read about it when they were released and the way you could tailor the hybrid system to work the way you want was pretty neat.

The 2025 CAFE "in real-world terms" is 39 mpg. So today's Honda civic almost reaches it. CAFE numbers are not to be taken literally, they are a bit of propaganda fake science.

I'm linking the text below as a reference for the above number. Otherwise, it is quite worthless and not worth reading.
https://physicsworld.com/a/long-veh...e-rollback-of-cafe-fuel-efficiency-standards/

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