An in-depth talk about FL5 ECU tuning

[ForeverCar]

@Vito.FL5 According to Viezu, KESS3, Autotuner, Magic Motorsport Flex all do not support the ECU of the FL5/DE5 ECU.

If I am looking for a good set of tools to download binaries from the ECU, edit maps, record high frequency and high bandwidth data logs, flash edit maps to the ECU, what tools would you suggest or recommend?

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[Vito.FL5]

Autotuner does support the FL5/DE5 ecu.
A good hex editor.
Friends working at Honda.
Your own logging tool.

But at this point it´s over a $10K bill just to start. If you are not in this market professionally, I would go with Hondata for sure

 

[ThreeD]

Amazing to read through. Thank you so much for sharing it has been an enlightening read

Do you have any interest in non-ECU based tuning, e.g. making VSA easier to turn off, a damper module to tune the adjustable dampers like DSC controller for Porsches, or overriding the electronic handbrake to activate the servo for the e-brake, similar to the "drift brake" in the new Mustang?

 

[ABPDE5]

Autotuner does support the FL5/DE5 ecu.
A good hex editor.
Friends working at Honda.
Your own logging tool.

But at this point it´s over a $10K bill just to start. If you are not in this market professionally, I would go with Hondata for sure

Better off just going Motec, then, if you are just in it for your own build.

 

[Vito.FL5]

Amazing to read through. Thank you so much for sharing it has been an enlightening read

Do you have any interest in non-ECU based tuning, e.g. making VSA easier to turn off, a damper module to tune the adjustable dampers like DSC controller for Porsches, or overriding the electronic handbrake to activate the servo for the e-brake, similar to the "drift brake" in the new Mustang?

yes, this is part of the reason I am building that can bus board I postes a few posts ago.

I will see what I can do from that… perhaps mimic the “pedal dance” signals to disable VSA easier.

I am looking into the suspension module, so are a couple of friends, the main goal is to be able to reflash the module with custom settings. If we fail at that, plan B is to replace the calibrating resistors for every shock output with 4 digital potentiometers. Put that into a can board, hook it to the can that is available inside the suspension module and use another can module to control it.

it would be like a piggyback for the ADS

 

[ThreeD]

yes, this is part of the reason I am building that can bus board I postes a few posts ago.

I will see what I can do from that… perhaps mimic the “pedal dance” signals to disable VSA easier.

I am looking into the suspension module, so are a couple of friends, the main goal is to be able to reflash the module with custom settings. If we fail at that, plan B is to replace the calibrating resistors for every shock output with 4 digital potentiometers. Put that into a can board, hook it to the can that is available inside the suspension module and use another can module to control it.

it would be like a piggyback for the ADS

Really looking forward to your work. If we could reflash on the fly or a piggyback that allows continuous control, would be a game changer. Suspension tuning from a laptop like the OEs.

 

[Vito.FL5]

Really looking forward to your work. If we could reflash on the fly or a piggyback that allows continuous control, would be a game changer. Suspension tuning from a laptop like the OEs.

The piggyback solution os very simple. it can be done in may ways, what I want to do is fit everything inside the ADS module, and control it over the car's existing can network.

but it could be done much much simpler. As simple as replacing the resistors with trimpots and tuning the shocks harder or softer.



either way, Im looking in the flashing solution, if that doesn't do, I'll go plan B.

If at any point I feel like I dont have time to do it, I can assist someone with basic eletronics knoledge to do it

 

[ForeverCar]

Autotuner does support the FL5/DE5 ecu.
A good hex editor.
Friends working at Honda.
Your own logging tool.

But at this point it´s over a $10K bill just to start. If you are not in this market professionally, I would go with Hondata for sure

@Vito.FL5 If you prefer, I am happy to move Q&A to DM/PM too. I figure since this is about ECU tuning, others might benefit from your expertise as well.

Can you elaborate a bit more on “friends working at Honda” please? Correct to assume it is for information that helps reverse engineering the code and data easier?

Good to know Autotuner supports the FL5/DE5 ECU. A newbie question.

Does that mean I can download, modify with hex editor, and flash the edited binary? I am wanting to learn how jailbreaking, encryption, and decryption fit into this workflow.

 

[ForeverCar]

Better off just going Motec, then, if you are just in it for your own build.

Well, I am waiting for it to become available. If it is available already, I would not be exploring this more expensive and tedious path with tools like Autotuner.

Hopefully, Motec comes out with it soon!

 

[Vito.FL5]

@Vito.FL5 If you prefer, I am happy to move Q&A to DM/PM too. I figure since this is about ECU tuning, others might benefit from your expertise as well.

Can you elaborate a bit more on “friends working at Honda” please? Correct to assume it is for information that helps reverse engineering the code and data easier?

Good to know Autotuner supports the FL5/DE5 ECU. A newbie question.

Does that mean I can download, modify with hex editor, and flash the edited binary? I am wanting to learn how jailbreaking, encryption, and decryption fit into this workflow.

It is a bit more complicated then that. Even you have a lot of experience in engine calibration, it is very chalenging.

But of course it can be done. I just would not start with a 2023 car with an ecu that has 3 decades of stuff piled up into over 30.000 maps.

To understand the process the cheapest way would be to buy an old 1.8T audi with a Me7 ecu and climb from there. Or even something older with a Bosch ecu that counts maps on hundreds not tens of thousands.

Otherwise would be like trying to climb K2 without knowing how to go up on a ladder.

 

[Vito.FL5]

Well, I am waiting for it to become available. If it is available already, I would not be exploring this more expensive and tedious path with tools like Autotuner.

Hopefully, Motec comes out with it soon!

Motec for the K20C1 exists, but for the FK8. They need to get the can integration ready before release it to the public.

But in the end, what do you think is lacking on Hondata for your use?

 

[ForeverCar]

It is a bit more complicated then that. Even you have a lot of experience in engine calibration, it is very chalenging.

But of course it can be done. I just would not start with a 2023 car with an ecu that has 3 decades of stuff piled up into over 30.000 maps.

To understand the process the cheapest way would be to buy an old 1.8T audi with a Me7 ecu and climb from there. Or even something older with a Bosch ecu that counts maps on hundreds not tens of thousands.

Otherwise would be like trying to climb K2 without knowing how to go up on a ladder.

I am likely in the minority as my motivations are very different than most I would speculate.

As strange as it might sound, I want to pursue this path partly because it is hard (forcing function to learn and do hard work).

Besides the rewards of good hard work, my objective is to share my learning to demystify modern ECU tuning.

Fundamental, it’s instructions and data in the binary, right? Even disassembly (op code to assembly code) or various reverse engineering tools would not be too scary. I get that the MED17.9.3 has years of development and likely has hundreds of thousands of line of C-like code for the firmware (maybe more). Eventually, I want to get to a point of developing my own firmware and ECU control logic/code.

I am hoping you are open to helping demystifying ECU tuning for the broader community. I also understand and respect if you are not.

 

[ForeverCar]

Motec for the K20C1 exists, but for the FK8. They need to get the can integration ready before release it to the public.

But in the end, what do you think is lacking on Hondata for your use?

You would not happen to know if Motec is working on it for the FL5/DE5 would you?

I have not looked into Hondata in detail since the FK8 days. I prefer a first principle approach. Does Hondata share what they have access to and what they do not?

Doing it right might not make the car run any better in most conditions compared to a bit of “hacking” with limited access (I suspect Hondata is in this category in terms of capabilities).

In the end, learning, discovery, and hard work make up a good bit of my motivation to go down this expensive and not necessary more productive path (depending on how one views productivity).

 

[Vito.FL5]

I am likely in the minority as my motivations are very different than most I would speculate.

As strange as it might sound, I want to pursue this path partly because it is hard (forcing function to learn and do hard work).

Besides the rewards of good hard work, my objective is to share my learning to demystify modern ECU tuning.

Fundamental, it’s instructions and data in the binary, right? Even disassembly (op code to assembly code) or various reverse engineering tools would not be too scary. I get that the MED17.9.3 has years of development and likely has hundreds of thousands of line of C-like code for the firmware (maybe more). Eventually, I want to get to a point of developing my own firmware and ECU control logic/code.

I am hoping you are open to helping demystifying ECU tuning for the broader community. I also understand and respect if you are not.

If you want to do it for the fun of the process, I am here to help!

What I say is that if you want to do it because you want the best results possible quickly, I am here to help too, but also warn you that it is a slow process and other paths should grant you a better result quicker.

Either way, you can DM me so I can help get you started. Not because I dont want to share it publically but because it will be a lot of nonsense to the general public.

I can provide you a stock bin file and some good documents to start so you can look into it it and get familiar with it before spending 6k$ on a flash tool. Besides, it is good to be a little patient as someone will come up with a good OBD flashing solution and that will become the best tool option.

 

[Vito.FL5]

You would not happen to know if Motec is working on it for the FL5/DE5 would you?

Last time I asket it was not a priority, but next time I have to call them I will ask again.

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