DE5 HPD/JAS Motorsport TCR - What cooling modifications were done (comparison to the HPD FK8)?

[Rhorn]

I spoke to a user about this question before but I couldn't find the comment. I made this post to talk about the CTR race cars, and what modifications were done to them and what we can learn from it.

Im not really familiar with Honda community and I wasn't around for the FK8 scene, so I find sporadic posts on the Civic X website to read about this which always have good info. I though you could easily buy parts for the HPD FK8 TC/FL5TCR and put them on our cars but apparently alot of those parts you can't buy unless you have the race car. Even if you found the aftermarket companies that make them, the part is bare bones and it was customized it for fitment, so even if were able to get your hands on the part, it wouldn't fit.

The TC cars that HPD offers are alot closer to the stock car (it uses stock parts) than the JAS TCR. The TCR is basically 2 levels above what the TC is, so its more heavily modified.

HPD FK8 TC
Honda was open with what modifications were done and provided a spec sheet for us
FK8 TC Press Release
Spec sheet

HPD DE5 TCX
HPD DE5 Integra Type S Announcement
Spec sheet
Brochure

JAS FL5 TCR
With the FL5 TCR it is entirely built by JAS Motorsport. They won't give you a spec sheet unless you have the car.
HPD Announcement
HPD Brochure of FL5 TCR
JAS Announcement

HPD and JAS like to keep a closed lipped about certain parts that the cars are running, so alot of this stuff is kept hush hush and you can't purchase parts directly from their suppliers. So Im just curious as to what the race cars are doing to keep these cars cool and what we can learn from it. Seems really insane that they can do laps after laps in the heat and not overheat.


Update 1: Attaching the additional details JAS sent me of the TCR.

Update 2: HPD Just announced the DE5 Integra Type S TC which will be phasing out the FK8 TC

Update 3: I edited this post it to make it more clear and easy to follow, since I really made this just to ask a quick question, and there was alot of jargon that was confusing. If you see some of the replies my initial post and are confused because the text isn't that same, this is why. I didn't really understand what I was saying so there was alot of confusing and wrong information that I corrected.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

Great thread.

From what I can see without having pit access or knowing any of the team mechanics is the TCR cars run a V mount set up where the radiator and the intercooler each recieve fresh incoming air as opposed to the OEM set up of the intercooler being located directly in front of the radiator.
If one could figure out a way to keep A/C in a V-mount set up on our platform (common on RX7 FD's) it would make the whole prospect viable for road going car - however depending on your country and the road legalities, a V mount set up generally requires heavy modification to the front crash supports and thus presents a compliance challenge if you reside in a stricter state/country.

I think for the average punter like myself its way too impractical and expensive to set up so my thinking is its best to keep the engine at a conservative power level to put less stress on the already somewhat stressed cooling system of our FK8/FL5's.

 

[keller]

I spoke to a user about this question before but I couldn't find the post (hence why I am make a post)

Hey man, I guess that was me? https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/thoughts-on-fl5-vs-fk8-by-savagegeese.51240/post-863731
I'm interested in these topics because I'm really in search of a solution.

After looking in the HPD FK8 TCR,

I believe you are confusing TCR and TC cars. FK8 TCRs are made by JAS motorsports, just like the FL5. FK8 TC cars comply to TC America's "TC" class and are built by HPD. The TC car is a LOT closer to a road legal FK8 - eg TC cars are manuals (stock transmission), while TCR cars are 6-speed sequential - and most parts are made by well known aftermarket part companies (RV6, acuity, 4pistons). After a few years, they started to sell those same parts to anyone, like suspension goodies or cams. I fully expect HPD to release a FL5 TC car soon.

Here's an FK8 TC car for sale (see interior pics!):
https://www.lahondaworld.com/invent...e-r-4dr-2-0t-type-r-tc-6mt-0000000000tcfk810/

Back to the topic, here's a pic of an FL5 TCR car:

As you can see, it's a completely different beast. It's actually interesting that the FL5 TCR uses the upper grille, while the FK8 TCR had it completely closed!!

I wouldn't want to increase the power on my car, but Im just curious as to what the race cars are doing to keep these cars cool. Seems really insane that they can do laps after laps in the heat and not overheat.

These TCR cars are so different than ours that I'm afraid we can't learn much from them. That's why we were interested in those Super Taikyu's Type Rs (FK8 and now FL5) that I mentioned in that post (link to discussion). It's much closer to a road legal vehicle and Honda races them even in endurance races. They seem to have an oil cooler, a secondary radiator, larger grille and a large hood vent. We know for a fact that these changes are not enough to prevent an FK8 from overheating, so what is missing? Probably the lack of an AC condenser and a radiator fan/shroud assembly. Unfortunately, that's a step we are not willing to take.

We now have reports of heavily modified hard driven FK8s not overheating anymore. Once track season ends, people will write about their experiences and we'll be able to learn what worked and what didn't.

Last week, gridzilla took his FL5 to Thunderhill East Bypass for the first time. He's a great driver and had an FK8, so we were anxious to see his times. He pulled off a great lap time while barely managing to get a full hotlap without overheating. Ended with a blown R660 turbo

 

[Rhorn]

Hey man, I guess that was me? https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/thoughts-on-fl5-vs-fk8-by-savagegeese.51240/post-863731
I'm interested in these topics because I'm really in search of a solution.

Yes! At the time you made that comment I tried to add you as a friend so I could lurk on your posts but there's no function for that. I remember the comment was berried in some random post lol

I believe you are confusing TCR and TC cars. FK8 TCRs are made by JAS motorsports, just like the FL5. FK8 TC cars comply to TC America's "TC" class and are built by HPD. The TC car is a LOT closer to a road legal FK8 - eg TC cars are manuals (stock transmission), while TCR cars are 6-speed sequential - and most parts are made by well known aftermarket part companies (RV6, acuity, 4pistons). After a few years, they started to sell those same parts to anyone, like suspension goodies or cams. I fully expect HPD to release a FL5 TC car soon.

Here's an FK8 TC car for sale (see interior pics!):
https://www.lahondaworld.com/invent...e-r-4dr-2-0t-type-r-tc-6mt-0000000000tcfk810/

Wow, yes! Good catch, I actually didn't know that. So that explains why I was confused as to why the JAS FL5 TCR has pretty extensive modifications, especially on the engine (from the limited info in the brochure) compared to the HPD FK8 TC. The TCR is actually competing right now in the Michelin Pilot Challenge

Just got off the phone with the dealership about that FK8 TC, they said that they wanted $94,000 for it lol. They are going to call me back because the salesman was completely confused (no surprise). The guy told me that it was brand new and fresh from the factory which doesn't make any sense to me lol. I told them that I wanted to know about the race history of it, because it looks extremely clean for a race car.

I called HPD also, and had good talk with them. They pretty much said the same thing that you are saying regarding the TC and TCR cars; the TCRs are alot more modified and have alot of custom work whereas the TC are mostly just stock. Sadly, he told me as far as he knows, there is no FL5 TC planned. He told me that the HPD Civic Si was a huge hit and all of them instantly sold out, and they actually want a new round of production. They also told me that there are still around 5 "new" FK8s TCs that are for sale, and the $90,000 price is negotiable.

I'd honestly love to own a used HPD Si because of easy it'd be to get parts. I just don't have the resources at the moment, its always been a dream of mine to eventually start a team and go into an entry level series like SRO TC America for a season. I really do love the idea behind HPD and now that they are offering turn key race cars instead of just a shell and like before.

There is a SRO TC America race that is happening thats pretty local, I could take try to get a picture of the engine bay but Im pretty its already been done before, unlike the new FL5 TCR and other variants that are coming out

We now have reports of heavily modified hard driven FK8s not overheating anymore. Once track season ends, people will write about their experiences and we'll be able to learn what worked and what didn't.

Last week, gridzilla took his FL5 to Thunderhill East Bypass for the first time. He's a great driver and had an FK8, so we were anxious to see his times. He pulled off a great lap time while barely managing to get a full hotlap without overheating. Ended with a blown R660 turbo

Did they remove the AC? I know that removing the AC unit gives you the space but some people aren't willingly to go that far.

Yes I saw that video, that was actually crazy lol. I knew the R660 was in beta for awhile, idk if they ever had a full release.

 

[Rhorn]

Great thread.

From what I can see without having pit access or knowing any of the team mechanics is the TCR cars run a V mount set up where the radiator and the intercooler each recieve fresh incoming air as opposed to the OEM set up of the intercooler being located directly in front of the radiator.
If one could figure out a way to keep A/C in a V-mount set up on our platform (common on RX7 FD's) it would make the whole prospect viable for road going car - however depending on your country and the road legalities, a V mount set up generally requires heavy modification to the front crash supports and thus presents a compliance challenge if you reside in a stricter state/country.

I think for the average punter like myself its way too impractical and expensive to set up so my thinking is its best to keep the engine at a conservative power level to put less stress on the already somewhat stressed cooling system of our FK8/FL5's.

So with the V mount the intercooler is in the middle and radiator are on the sides? Had to so a quick search on the RX7s to see what you are talking about, and I get it now.

Yeah doing that definitely kills she street friendly manners of the car, better to just do what you said or just go in colder weather unless you are a pro.

 

[keller]

Yes! At the time you made that comment I tried to add you as a friend so I could lurk on your posts but there's no function for that. I remember the comment was berried in some random post lol



Wow, yes! Good catch, I actually didn't know that. So that explains why I was confused as to why the JAS FL5 TCR has pretty extensive modifications, especially on the engine (from the limited info in the brochure) compared to the HPD FK8 TC. The TCR is actually competing right now in the Michelin Pilot Challenge

Just got off the phone with the dealership about that FK8 TC, they said that they wanted $94,000 for it lol. They are going to call me back because the salesman was completely confused (no surprise). The guy told me that it was brand new and fresh from the factory which doesn't make any sense to me lol. I told them that I wanted to know about the race history of it, because it looks extremely clean for a race car.

I called HPD also, and had good talk with them. They pretty much said the same thing that you are saying regarding the TC and TCR cars; the TCRs are alot more modified and have alot of custom work whereas the TC are mostly just stock. Sadly, he told me as far as he knows, there is no FL5 TC planned. He told me that the HPD Civic Si was a huge hit and all of them instantly sold out, and they actually want a new round of production. They also told me that there are still around 5 "new" FK8s TCs that are for sale, and the $90,000 price is negotiable.

I'd honestly love to own a used HPD Si because of easy it'd be to get parts. I just don't have the resources at the moment, its always been a dream of mine to eventually start a team and go into an entry level series like SRO TC America for a season. I really do love the idea behind HPD and now that they are offering turn key race cars instead of just a shell and like before.

Yeah, 90k usd is close to what I'd have expected. I once talked to a TCR pilot during a trackday (he was testing his Audi RS3 TCR). He told me each race cost him 5-10k usd, excluding fees - that's a damn expensive sport. It's interesting that FK8 TC is still for sale, I first looked at that listing like 2y ago!!

Did you ask why they are not developing a FL5 TC car? I recently learned there's an FK8 TCX car that looks like a TCR, but I don't have any more info on that.

Yeah that Civic Si TCA is a thing of beauty, but it should be pricey. Have you considered racing in a Lucky Dog Racing League? I own a similar race car and I can tell you that thing is so much fun. Two weeks ago the wheel literally fell off during a training session when my wife was piloting. Now imagine if that happens when she's driving her Civic Si on a trackday? That would have been dangerous and a crazy expensive fix. Hey, here's a listing that looks interesting!

There is a SRO TC America race that is happening thats pretty local, I could take try to get a picture of the engine bay but Im pretty its already been done before, unlike the new FL5 TCR and other variants that are coming out

I'd go anyway just to watch the race. It's always fun and it's a nice place to go with friends or meet new people.

Did they remove the AC? I know that removing the AC unit gives you the space but some people aren't willingly to go that far.

Yes I saw that video, that was actually crazy lol. I knew the R660 was in beta for awhile, idk if they ever had a full release.

They did not remove the AC!! The problem with the AC is not really the space, but the fact the AC condenser blocks the radiator. Removing the AC condenser is a known solution for years - after all, these modded FK8s would basically become an FK8 TC car cooling-wise at that point.

They added one/two secondary radiators and it seems to have fixed things. Not sure how much power they are running more than stock though. This is the guy that came up with the idea (that thread is golden). There's even a recent DIY thread.

What video? It just saw his ig post. The R660 was released yes, it's probably the best drop-in turbo for our cars at the moment. RV6 mentioned they designed it with a larger hotside to decrease backpressure and alleviate overheating issues.

 

[Rhorn]

Yeah, 90k usd is close to what I'd have expected. I once talked to a TCR pilot during a trackday (he was testing his Audi RS3 TCR). He told me each race cost him 5-10k usd, excluding fees - that's a damn expensive sport. It's interesting that FK8 TC is still for sale, I first looked at that listing like 2y ago!!

Did you ask why they are not developing a FL5 TC car? I recently learned there's an FK8 TCX car that looks like a TCR, but I don't have any more info on that.

Still, I think $90k is overpriced for a USED race car lol. The thing has been to hell and back, I know a few years ago Ford Performance was selling off their GT350s that they used for the track attack program and they were going for $50k which was a very nice deal. Yeah man its expensive which is why its just a pipe dream right now lol, I don't have the means or the funds right now lol and won't for awhile

LOL so the dealership never called me back so thats probably why, I had no idea it was on their website for that long. Its a bit pricey new which was ~$55k which isn't bad considering the Miata Cup Car is about the same and those both really are the cheapest new turn key race cars. The GR86 cup car is $125,000 which is just stupid expensive lol. With the Civic SI I don't for see it commanding the $55k premium looking at it used, since you can't really play the ADM game with these types of cars.

I didn't ask why I assumed it was because the TC car is currently in season right now, and they'd make one for the 2024 SRO TC season, but when asked if that was why he said that he hadn't heard anything yet. Oh yeah, the TCX is the fastest class for SRO TC America, its TCX > TC > TCA. Im assuming that the TCX is similar to TCR but I actually couldn't find the class regulations the website has them listed as "Pending" lol. I only found about TC America a few weeks ago from it being livestreamed on youtube so im not very familiar with exactly what is and isn't allowed when going up a class.

Yeah that Civic Si TCA is a thing of beauty, but it should be pricey. Have you considered racing in a Lucky Dog Racing League? I own a similar race car and I can tell you that thing is so much fun. Two weeks ago the wheel literally fell off during a training session when my wife was piloting. Now imagine if that happens when she's driving her Civic Si on a trackday? That would have been dangerous and a crazy expensive fix. Hey, here's a listing that looks interesting!

I'd actually like to do that once I'm alot more capable. It seems fun and I love the grassroots culture. Lol yeah there's always crazy stuff that happens on track lol. Thats an amazing car, thats thats the type of car I want to get, I don't need something crazy. I just need a car thats cheap and easy to work on just to get seat time. Do you have a truck and trailer to tow your car? Thats the one thing holding me back, I'll need to move since I don't have the space really for either of those lol. Racejunk has good finds.

I'd go anyway just to watch the race. It's always fun and it's a nice place to go with friends or meet new people.

Yeah thats a good point, the tickets really aren't that expensive I remember going to one of the ISMA races at Laguna Seca years ago when I lived in CA with my buddy and that was such a fun time. Definitely will hit this one up. Its not even televised so It seems like its a small community which I like.

They did not remove the AC!! The problem with the AC is not really the space, but the fact the AC condenser blocks the radiator. Removing the AC condenser is a known solution for years - after all, these modded FK8s would basically become an FK8 TC car cooling-wise at that point.

They added one/two secondary radiators and it seems to have fixed things. Not sure how much power they are running more than stock though. This is the guy that came up with the idea (that thread is golden). There's even a recent DIY thread.

What video? It just saw his ig post. The R660 was released yes, it's probably the best drop-in turbo for our cars at the moment. RV6 mentioned they designed it with a larger hotside to decrease backpressure and alleviate overheating issues.

Thats good, Im assuming that those parts will be a direct carryover with the FL5 since not much has changed, and it might be even easier since the car is longer, so Im guessing their might be more space to do that.

This is the video Tbf he does say that he expected the car to overheat (although I don't think he expected it to get that bad) because it was 100F and all other FI cars were overheating as well. Yeah I saw that the R660 is supposed to help, thats good its decreases backpressure. I was reading that another guy on the X forums had 2 of those blow up (one was from a defect) and that he's going to the MHI turbo. You know how that compares to the R660?

 

[keller]

I don't need something crazy. I just need a car thats cheap and easy to work on just to get seat time. Do you have a truck and trailer to tow your car?

Exactly, seat time is what matters. I purchased the race car because I wanted something that I could track on the warmer months, but ultimately it removed my frustration with the FK8 issue overall. I have a car that I can drive at 10/10ths all year long, make mistakes and learn from them. Then I just enjoy the civic one lap at a time, putting down impressive lap times in one lap, cooling things down in another. I only attend open pit track days of 4h or 8h sessions, so it's not really a problem that half my laps are cooldown laps. But now I just love the race car - we're even preparing for a 12h endurance race early next year.

I don't have either. The shop that builds and maintains the car charges me a flat fee to keep the car there. I hire someone to tow it to the track and back. Transport makes 1/3 of all my costs with the race car.

Thats good, Im assuming that those parts will be a direct carryover with the FL5 since not much has changed, and it might be even easier since the car is longer, so Im guessing their might be more space to do that.

This is the video Tbf he does say that he expected the car to overheat (although I don't think he expected it to get that bad) because it was 100F and all other FI cars were overheating as well. Yeah I saw that the R660 is supposed to help, thats good its decreases backpressure. I was reading that another guy on the X forums had 2 of those blow up (one was from a defect) and that he's going to the MHI turbo. You know how that compares to the R660?

I don't think parts are carried over, but the strategy certainly is. A company from Singapore just released a kit of an auxiliary radiator for the FK8. It's just a matter of time for a design for the FL5. And, as you said, the FL5 is a much better starting point overall.

Thanks for the video. Awesome driving. It was painful to watch such a new car limping and then leaking like that. He mentioned he had hondata fuel system, downpipe, an R660 and then tuned for 100 octane fuel. That's 450+ hp territory, there's no way that wouldn't overheat.

MHI is OEM+. Both the 10th gens 2.0T and 1.5T OEM turbochargers are from MHI. It just so happens that MHI also sells a larger upgrade to both. It's not a 600hp turbo like the competition, but it's reliable. It's a curious choice, nonetheless. It was pretty popular on the early days of the FK8. I wonder who makes the 11th gens OEM turbo.

 

[Rhorn]

Exactly, seat time is what matters. I purchased the race car because I wanted something that I could track on the warmer months, but ultimately it removed my frustration with the FK8 issue overall. I have a car that I can drive at 10/10ths all year long, make mistakes and learn from them. Then I just enjoy the civic one lap at a time, putting down impressive lap times in one lap, cooling things down in another. I only attend open pit track days of 4h or 8h sessions, so it's not really a problem that half my laps are cooldown laps. But now I just love the race car - we're even preparing for a 12h endurance race early next year.

I don't have either. The shop that builds and maintains the car charges me a flat fee to keep the car there. I hire someone to tow it to the track and back. Transport makes 1/3 of all my costs with the race car.

Wow yeah thats sounds awesome. Thats great about your situation. I'll have to look into that. If I can pay for storage and pay for transportation that'll make it alot more practical for me. The 12 hour endurance race will be fun. Will is just be you and your wife driving?

I don't think parts are carried over, but the strategy certainly is. A company from Singapore just released a kit of an auxiliary radiator for the FK8. It's just a matter of time for a design for the FL5. And, as you said, the FL5 is a much better starting point overall.

Thanks for the video. Awesome driving. It was painful to watch such a new car limping and then leaking like that. He mentioned he had hondata fuel system, downpipe, an R660 and then tuned for 100 octane fuel. That's 450+ hp territory, there's no way that wouldn't overheat.

MHI is OEM+. Both the 10th gens 2.0T and 1.5T OEM turbochargers are from MHI. It just so happens that MHI also sells a larger upgrade to both. It's not a 600hp turbo like the competition, but it's reliable. It's a curious choice, nonetheless. It was pretty popular on the early days of the FK8. I wonder who makes the 11th gens OEM turbo.

Wow good find! I actually just DM'd the maker to look into making one for the FL5.

Lol yeah its making alot of power, crazy how the coolant keep leaking out like that. Thats when you know you pushed it too far lol.

Ah gotcha. Hopefully more people can get their hands on the RV660 and offer alot of good feedback. I already know its highly praised.

 

[Rhorn]

So surprisingly JAS actually got back to me today.

They gave me their brochure which has a bit more info than the one previously linked (although its still not a spec sheet), they also gave me a tool list that they sell which actually has some stuff that looks useful.

I know the TCR isn't exactly comparable to the TC and the road going CTR but I can ask the representative any questions that you might have. I just like getting information like this.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

So surprisingly JAS actually got back to me today.

They gave me their brochure which has a bit more info than the one previously linked (although its still not a spec sheet), they also gave me a tool list that they sell which actually has some stuff that looks useful.

I know the TCR isn't exactly comparable to the TC and the road going CTR but I can ask the representative any questions that you might have. I just like getting information like this.

Damnnn thats cool. It may just be an illusion but it looks almost as though the engine has tilted back some to make way for the V mount set up on the TCR.

Now I would LOVE to see detailed pictures of their suspension set up....

 

[keller]

Wow yeah thats sounds awesome. Thats great about your situation. I'll have to look into that. If I can pay for storage and pay for transportation that'll make it alot more practical for me. The 12 hour endurance race will be fun. Will is just be you and your wife driving?

Yeah, it should be fun. Each team is 4-8 pilots, plus a couple mechanics to fix things at the track. People basically bring a full car in spare parts. Half the cars break down and quit the race, most of the other half will go through 1-2h long maintenance on the pit floor. It's cool for beginner pilots (like us) because you get to race yet driving skills aren't the most important factor for success, the reliability of the car is. You don't need to defend/attack positions, just maintain a healthy pace avoiding extreme stress on car parts. It's a multi class race: from prototypes and gt3 cars to my shitbox. It starts at midnight, so it's a night of redbull and pizzas among friends in an amazing F1 race track. Our friends have participated before, my wife and I are the rookies of the team lol.

Wow good find! I actually just DM'd the maker to look into making one for the FL5.

Lol yeah its making alot of power, crazy how the coolant keep leaking out like that. Thats when you know you pushed it too far lol.

Ah gotcha. Hopefully more people can get their hands on the RV660 and offer alot of good feedback. I already know its highly praised.

That's just a kit anyway, one could build that with common parts. The good thing is that they test fit everything and it comes with molded hoses. I have seen very few reports of the FL5 running hot so far, so maybe there isn't a market for kits like this? I think Baxi was the fist guy to outright claim it overheats, but now that I've seen his video that was obviously expected. Let's see how he fixes it.

So surprisingly JAS actually got back to me today.

They gave me their brochure which has a bit more info than the one previously linked (although its still not a spec sheet), they also gave me a tool list that they sell which actually has some stuff that looks useful.

I know the TCR isn't exactly comparable to the TC and the road going CTR but I can ask the representative any questions that you might have. I just like getting information like this.

Wow there's a really nice pic of the engine bay. I never really understood why they kept the inlet pipe in that position in the FK8.

FL5:

FK8:

As a curiosity, the "FK8 TCR" is actually an FK7 and (at least) the inlet pipe is from an FK2. They just slapped a Type R logo on the back haha.

 

[keller]

Damnnn thats cool. It may just be an illusion but it looks almost as though the engine has tilted back some to make way for the V mount set up on the TCR.

Now I would LOVE to see detailed pictures of their suspension set up....

I know it's the FK8 TCR, but you can get a glimpse in this video at the 1:30 and 3:20 mark.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I know it's the FK8 TCR, but you can get a glimpse in this video at the 1:30 and 3:20 mark.

Great video - first time seeing this in such detail. Interesting to see it is largely unchanged (ie. have kept the macpherson strut front, and multi link rear) - I had always assumed it was heavily modified into a double wishbone set up.

EDIT: Just rewatched it and noticed they've removed the dual axis set up for a more traditional style knuckle.

 

[keller]

Great video - first time seeing this in such detail. Interesting to see it is largely unchanged (ie. have kept the macpherson strut front, and multi link rear) - I had always assumed it was heavily modified into a double wishbone set up.

EDIT: Just rewatched it and noticed they've removed the dual axis set up for a more traditional style knuckle.

Yup. It seems like a billet knuckle like that one you linked once. Did you notice the rear spring is mounted around the shocks?

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