DE5 HPD/JAS Motorsport TCR - What cooling modifications were done (comparison to the HPD FK8)?

[PointByPatrol]

Admittedly I've been giving Gridzila a hard time on youtube with some stern comments on his approach to the whole thing. It somewhat triggered me as the click baity title ("Overheat is alive and well") in his first video on track (when it first overheated) failed to address the route cause and seemed to alude to failure of the vehicle itself which we later found was not true. It all came down to a failed AN fitting or IMO more likely an installation error - if AN lines aren't routed in certain ways the vibration of the engine WILL cause it to loosen up. Its important that these things are tightened, marked, and rechecked and also lockwired, and I suspect none of which were carried out. The second video seemed to place some level of blame on the RV6 turbo which is erroneous as any turbo that continues to be run without a coolant feed will overheat and fail..
On the other side of the coin, we can use his videos as a 'what not to do' lesson for ourselves.

Spot on dude!

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[Rhorn]

Wow I honestly can't believe I didn't see this, totally flew under the radar. The HPD guy was totally trolling me when he said that there were no plans for the FL5 TC

HPD announced that the next gen TC car will be the Acura Type S DE5 TC last week. This just popped up in my news feed and the date on the article is August 14th, so it was just a few days after I had that conversation with HPD.

Kinda weird that they are using the Integra than the CTR. I'm guessing maybe branding and history? The CTR in general is still relatively a new car here in the US unlike the Integra. Basically this is the "real" Integra Type R that we all wanted. Either way its planned to hit next season for SRO so I am definitely going to be keeping tabs on the races. Hopefully people in the community can get some engine bay shots so we can see how its setup differently from the FL5 TCR, and the FL5 from Super Taikyu

This is really big news and Im actually excited to see what they did. I'd love to get one of these lol. If only I had more money lol

HPD DE5 Integra Type S Announcement
Spec sheet
Brochure

Upon quick glance of the spec sheet one thing I saw was that they didn't reinforce the 3rd and 4th gears like in the FK8 TC. FK8 Spec sheet for comparison.

 

[keller]

Wow I honestly can't believe I didn't see this, totally flew under the radar. The HPD guy was totally trolling me when he said that there were no plans for the FL5 TC

HPD announced that the next gen TC car will be the Acura Type S DE5 TC last week. This just popped up in my news feed and the date on the article is August 14th, so it was just a few days after I had that conversation with HPD.

Kinda weird that they are using the Integra than the CTR. I'm guessing maybe branding and history? The CTR in general is still relatively a new car here in the US unlike the Integra. Basically this is the "real" Integra Type R that we all wanted. Either way its planned to hit next season for SRO so I am definitely going to be keeping tabs on the races. Hopefully people in the community can get some engine bay shots so we can see how its setup differently from the FL5 TCR, and the FL5 from Super Taikyu

This is really big news and Im actually excited to see what they did. I'd love to get one of these lol. If only I had more money lol

HPD DE5 Integra Type S Announcement
Spec sheet
Brochure

Upon quick glance of the spec sheet one thing I saw was that they didn't reinforce the 3rd and 4th gears like in the FK8 TC. FK8 Spec sheet for comparison.

That's nice. I like this drawing-like livery they chose for the type S. This car is TCX class though, so it features a sequential transmission. It isn't using our fragile 4th gear hehe. Really nice find!!

 

[Rhorn]

That's nice. I like this drawing-like livery they chose for the type S. This car is TCX class though, so it features a sequential transmission. It isn't using our fragile 4th gear hehe. Really nice find!!

They seem to be going with a theme with the Integra anime series so thats a nice touch. Oh wow good find, I didnt see that. I thought the sequential trans was a bit weird but thats makes sense now since its TCX.

I really couldn't find any info easily about the FK8 TCX. It could be that racing teams who have it have to modify a HPD TC and then just upgrades it? So maybe thats why HPD is now making a car for the TCX class?

It looks like HPD started making the HPD FK8 TCs in 2019, so Idk what teams were using before for the TC and TCX classes or if Honda was even there. Just a guess but it could be that its too early in the FL5's life cycle for them to make a TC. They might make the FL5 TC car in a few years, like what they did with the FK8. That's just my guess since HPD has all of the classes covered now.

Honda will be the only OEM in each class lol, so that'll be cool to see.

 

[TypeRD]

Yeah it’s a marketing move and a smart one. Acura has been trying to reinvigorate the brand (as fun and performance-oriented) for awhile and it’s important to tie some track success to the brand. It’s great to see it.

 

[keller]

I really couldn't find any info easily about the FK8 TCX. It could be that racing teams who have it have to modify a HPD TC and then just upgrades it? So maybe thats why HPD is now making a car for the TCX class?

By the looks of it, the TCX car seemed to have the same body panels as the TCR car. Then I found this article that says the "Honda Civic Type R TCX [is] a detuned version of the TCR-spec FK7/FK8 race car built by JAS Motorsport." Really cool pictures in it - I had never seen it in such detail before:

https://pitpad.com/2023/04/07/motor...ivic-type-r-tcx-and-our-first-year-in-racing/

 

[keller]

The recent cooling related discussion reminded me of this really cool video on YT.

Since we like race cars and Type Rs, enjoy some engine bay shots from a HRC race car:



Did you notice the large hood vents?

 

[Rhorn]

Interesting. I can see the big vents on the fenders and the 2 vents on the hood.

Under hood it doesn't look anything too crazy. They arent using the canted radiator setup that alot of other race cars use. Im guessing the stuff in the back around the valve cover are the upgraded fuel rail lines? Looks like they are using aluminum foil as wrapping which is actually kind of funny lol

I wonder what those big hoses coming from the front bumper are for. Especially the big orange one. My guess is that the two black ones are going to the brakes for cooling but I have no idea what the orange one is for.

 

[keller]

Im guessing the stuff in the back around the valve cover are the upgraded fuel rail lines? Looks like they are using aluminum foil as wrapping which is actually kind of funny lol

I wonder where what those big hoses coming from the front bumper are for. Especially the big orange one. My guess is that the two black ones are going to the brakes for cooling but I have no idea what the orange one is for.

I don't think it has upgraded fuel rail lines. It seems just like our car without the red cover on. Yeah that aluminum foil hahaha

Those hoses are interesting indeed. I have never seen flexible hoses like those (usually used for brake ducts) being used inside the engine bay. And I have seen my fair share of race car engine bays.

The big orange one seems to be going to the transmission. I'd say they removed the OEM transmission fluid cooler and replaced with an oil to air core.

I suppose it's still using the OEM location for the brake ducts, so those black hoses aren't for cooling the brakes. They are going to the backside of the engine. Now, can you see the blue/purple hose written Koyorad? Maybe they installed an auxiliary radiator back there and needed to route fresh air to it using the black hoses? That is the exact location used for the FK8 Mishimoto secondary radiator.

They moved the honda badge from the front grill to make space, just like the Civics of old. The front bumper has squares cut in both sides too and I can see an oil cooler on the left side.

This car seems to be running stock intake and stock turbo. Even though there's a motec in there, I don't believe it's running crazy power figures.

 

[Rhorn]

I don't think it has upgraded fuel rail lines. It seems just like our car without the red cover on. Yeah that aluminum foil hahaha

Those hoses are interesting indeed. I have never seen flexible hoses like those (usually used for brake ducts) being used inside the engine bay. And I have seen my fair share of race car engine bays.

The big orange one seems to be going to the transmission. I'd say they removed the OEM transmission fluid cooler and replaced with an oil to air core.

I suppose it's still using the OEM location for the brake ducts, so those black hoses aren't for cooling the brakes. They are going to the backside of the engine. Now, can you see the blue/purple hose written Koyorad? Maybe they installed an auxiliary radiator back there and needed to route fresh air to it using the black hoses? That is the exact location used for the FK8 Mishimoto secondary radiator.

They moved the honda badge from the front grill to make space, just like the Civics of old. The front bumper has squares cut in both sides too and I can see an oil cooler on the left side.

This car seems to be running stock intake and stock turbo. Even though there's a motec in there, I don't believe it's running crazy power figures.

Are you sure? I could be wrong about the fuel lines because I really don't know what they look like but I don't think the back of the bay is stock. Mine certainly doesn't have these things

I wonder why they used Aluminum foil instead of the gold plating and other heat types of heat shielding we see on downpipes and the turbo. Maybe its probably not worth the cost or its just weight savings.

That's a good catch, didn't notice that. Its interesting that they just ripped out the grille, I know that although it seems like a good idea, I've read that it can bring in too much air and negatively affect aerodynamics, at least thats how it is on a street car.

I wonder why they used Aluminum foil instead of the gold plating and other types of heat shielding we see on downpipes and the turbo. Maybe its probably not worth the cost or its just weight savings.

That's a good catch, didn't notice that. Its interesting that they just ripped out the grille, I know that although it seems like a good idea, I've read that it can bring in too much air and negatively affect aerodynamics, at least thats how it is on a street car.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

Thats an awesome video - thanks for sharing @keller. I wish I could understand Japanese...
While there is a certain wildness about how it looks visually, you can see that everything is meticulously thought out and considered.
I agree that the power levels would for sure be kept at a conservative level, similar to the TCR cars - the Motec is more used for its data logging capabilities in this scenario than maximising power.

That's a good catch, didn't notice that. Its interesting that they just ripped out the grille, I know that although it seems like a good idea, I've read that it can bring in too much air and negatively affect aerodynamics, at least thats how it is on a street car.

This is a true phenomenon, increased frontal air intake will increase under hood pressures thus causing extra drag and extra front axle lift. It looks like they've compensated for that by adding the two hood exit vents and also the fender vents, with the addition of the fairly aggressive looking front lip I suspect would have more than counteracted the extra cooling drag/lift.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

Thanks for this. It seems ECT is well under control. 93°C ECT is the temperature I wait to be at to start a hot lap haha. Have you considered using racing slicks to deal with the heat? Do you think you could push your car for a full 20 min session if not for the tires? People usually say they are not overheating when they can push the car for a full session without a cooldown lap or pulling power. They'll complain and (try to) mod the car until that happens.

Do you usually track your car during the summer? Please report back when you get to warmer weather.

I'd love to read your observations about the suspension. I once saw a video of you seemingly hitting a curb with the inside wheel and the car jumping badly.

@GreenMachineGTE, I think you'll be pleased to read this report.

Appologies, I somehow missed this post.

I haven't considered racing slicks as its a bit of question mark if R compounds would overwhelm the vehicle in terms of oiling (perhaps need baffled sump at the least?) and suspension tune (stock bushes will deflect too much, stiffer spring rates required etc).

Its now getting hotter in Australia now so I'll have the opportunity to try it out in hotter ambient temperatures - will report back my findings for sure. Currently the car is still bone stock powertrain and cooling wise.

Suspension wise - it is far from perfect. I have long reported that the OEM ADS tune is far too reactive to G-load and ramps the damping rate up far too aggressively, this results in the chassis bouncing and loss of tyre contact to the road, and pushes wide. I am exclusively driving in comfort in all conditions as S and +R are unusable IMO.
Would love to try the ITS ADS but it seems unobtanium right now (back order everywhere) - I've set up a few FL5's on Ohlins now and I've been impressed. This is direction I plan on going later in the year.. more saving up to do

 

[ne_typer]

Went down a long rabbit hole of YouTube videos and HPD catalogs, and the common theme is the following;

1) Airflow really matters. Most of the hoods have extra vents. At the very least, they don’t have the rain shields.

2) They all have OE or OE style tube and fin intercoolers

3) They’re feeding aux oil coolers with fresh air that doesn’t interfere with radiator cooling.

 

[keller]

Are you sure? I could be wrong about the fuel lines because I really don't know what they look like but I don't think the back of the bay is stock. Mine certainly doesn't have these things

That hose leaving the cylinder head seems to be a PCV hose leading to a catch can, located where the stock battery goes. Race cars usually don't use closed loop systems for blow-by gases. The catch can seems to be venting to atmosphere. My race car has one just like that. After a trackday it's filled with a smelly mix of oil and ethanol.

The blue hose is the one written Koyorad that I mentioned in my previous post; I assume it's flowing coolant.

I wonder why they used Aluminum foil instead of the gold plating and other heat types of heat shielding we see on downpipes and the turbo. Maybe its probably not worth the cost or its just weight savings.

It seems they are only wrapping black plastic pieces to reduce thermal radiation absorption. Any reflective material works.

 

[keller]

Appologies, I somehow missed this post.

I haven't considered racing slicks as its a bit of question mark if R compounds would overwhelm the vehicle in terms of oiling (perhaps need baffled sump at the least?) and suspension tune (stock bushes will deflect too much, stiffer spring rates required etc).

Its now getting hotter in Australia now so I'll have the opportunity to try it out in hotter ambient temperatures - will report back my findings for sure. Currently the car is still bone stock powertrain and cooling wise.

Suspension wise - it is far from perfect. I have long reported that the OEM ADS tune is far too reactive to G-load and ramps the damping rate up far too aggressively, this results in the chassis bouncing and loss of tyre contact to the road, and pushes wide. I am exclusively driving in comfort in all conditions as S and +R are unusable IMO.
Would love to try the ITS ADS but it seems unobtanium right now (back order everywhere) - I've set up a few FL5's on Ohlins now and I've been impressed. This is direction I plan on going later in the year.. more saving up to do

Thanks for this.

A few guys are running racing slicks in their fk8s. A local guy is using yoko A005 in his FL5 too. I also remember reading that honda stiffened the front suspension of the FL5 to increase camber stability on higher loads. I guess it should be safe with some hard slicks - you don't gain much grip but they deal with heat soo much better.

Have you ever driven an FK8 on track? This behavior of the suspension is exclusive of the FL5? I might just be so far away from the limit that I haven't noticed it haha.

It's sad you are close to ditching the ADS for coilovers because of it. For me, the Type R is so special because it's both a great daily and a somewhat capable track car. I'm working on a way to tune my FK8 ADS controller. I'm getting tired of having to replace the original ADS unit every trackday for the LE ADS. I simply can't use the LE ADS on the street because it's so damn stiff.

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