Has the 2nd gear grind happened to your FL5 yet?

[Bigfx]

How much clutch pedal play are you supposed to have? Mine moves a little until I get pressure do we want all that slack out?

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[ne_typer]

I agree that this is an issue. I've had like 5 K-series manuals and have learned to drive around it, and haven't had this issue at all on my FL5 or ITS. It's all about slightly adjusting the CMC (not too much), and making sure clutch timing is right.

 

[TurboZed-R]

I readjusted the pedal per the video I shared and it made a noticable change. There's still some extra resistance getting into second but it seems to be more notchy and not a lockout feeling. Some of this is the hybrid racing shifter. Next is the fluid change.
I might put the factory shifter back in.

If you haven't replaced the fluid don't expect a shifter to be buttery smooth. I have done early fluid swaps in all of my manuals (370z nismo, focus rs) and have always seen an improvement in shifter feel. The R is no exception, after swapping to Ravenol 75w80 2nd gear is butter.

 

[chadwicke619]

Wow, this post has some legs. Anyway, I don’t think what we refer to as “second gear grind” has anything to do with the CMC, or transmission fluid, or the pedal adjustment, or anything like that. When we are accelerating in first and clutch in, there’s a lot of weight transfer from the rear to the front - combined with soft spring rates in the front, there’s a ton of engine and transmission movement. Combined with a huge ratio between 1 and 2, it can take a few milliseconds extra to line everything up and get a smooth shift. Ask anyone with increased stiffness mods up front and I can almost guarantee you that they report a significantly easier 1 > 2 transition - high quality coilovers, stiffer motor mounts, sway bars, anti lift, etc.

 

[Gansan]

Wow, this post has some legs. Anyway, I don’t think what we refer to as “second gear grind” has anything to do with the CMC, or transmission fluid, or the pedal adjustment, or anything like that. When we are accelerating in first and clutch in, there’s a lot of weight transfer from the rear to the front - combined with soft spring rates in the front, there’s a ton of engine and transmission movement. Combined with a huge ratio between 1 and 2, it can take a few milliseconds extra to line everything up and get a smooth shift. Ask anyone with increased stiffness mods up front and I can almost guarantee you that they report a significantly easier 1 > 2 transition - high quality coilovers, stiffer motor mounts, sway bars, anti lift, etc.

Can you explain exactly the physical chain of events that will cause what you describe?

What you're saying about the cause doesn't make sense. The suspension movement has no physical connection to the transmission. The motor mounts hold the engine and transmission up and the forces they transmit don't reach the internals. They don't physically have any effect on the gears and synchros. Same goes for sway bars.

When you say there's a ton of engine and transmission movement, they move as a single rigid unit connected by the bellhousing. The crank, clutch, and input shaft are always held in alignment or there will be hell to pay. This is why engine blocks and transmission cases are giant, thick pieces of metal with webbed reinforcements.

Similarly, weight transfer cannot affect the internal alignment of gears and synchros. They are held in an extremely strong and rigid transmission housing and suspended by bearings. The whole purpose of the housing is to hold the internal shafts and gears in alignment with each other and it doesn't carry any of the weight of the car (unless you have a formula car or F50). You can put all the weight of the car on one axle or the other and the gears inside the transmission won't feel a thing.

 

[chadwicke619]

Can you explain exactly the physical chain of events that will cause what you describe?

What you're saying about the cause doesn't make sense. The suspension movement has no physical connection to the transmission. The motor mounts hold the engine and transmission up and the forces they transmit don't reach the internals. They don't physically have any effect on the gears and synchros. Same goes for sway bars.

When you say there's a ton of engine and transmission movement, they move as a single rigid unit connected by the bellhousing. The crank, clutch, and input shaft are always held in alignment or there will be hell to pay. This is why engine blocks and transmission cases are giant, thick pieces of metal with webbed reinforcements.

Similarly, weight transfer cannot affect the internal alignment of gears and synchros. They are held in an extremely strong and rigid transmission housing and suspended by bearings. The whole purpose of the housing is to hold the internal shafts and gears in alignment with each other and it doesn't carry any of the weight of the car (unless you have a formula car or F50). You can put all the weight of the car on one axle or the other and the gears inside the transmission won't feel a thing.

I'm not a mechanic so I'm not going to try to argue with you about how cars work. What I can tell you is that I am not saying that the gearbox or the syncros get scrambled or physically impacted, or that there is actual movement in the transmission, or that something something the axle, or whatever it is that you're talking about. All I am saying is that the ratio between the two gears is large, so getting a smooth shift is already more difficult than it might otherwise be - on top that, when you are accelerating and then clutch in, your front end is going to move up and down. If you have certain mods, you can mitigate the amount that your car moves around when you do certain things. My car with Ohlins coilovers and a stiffer rear motor mount is significantly better at staying settled when I clutch in during an aggressive 1st gear pull - the stock car is not very good at staying settled in this example. Since my car stays planted and settled instead of lurching like a stock car, the 1 > 2 is very easy to make.

 

[Gansan]

I'm not a mechanic so I'm not going to try to argue with you about how cars work. What I can tell you is that I am not saying that the gearbox or the syncros get scrambled or physically impacted, or that there is actual movement in the transmission, or that something something the axle, or whatever it is that you're talking about. All I am saying is that the ratio between the two gears is large, so getting a smooth shift is already more difficult than it might otherwise be - on top that, when you are accelerating and then clutch in, your front end is going to move up and down. If you have certain mods, you can mitigate the amount that your car moves around when you do certain things. My car with Ohlins coilovers and a stiffer rear motor mount is significantly better at staying settled when I clutch in during an aggressive 1st gear pull - the stock car is not very good at staying settled in this example. Since my car stays planted and settled instead of lurching like a stock car, the 1 > 2 is very easy to make.

I'm sure you're right the car is more settled and feels better after your mods. However, part of the shifting system is the human being, and we squishy humans can be affected by all sorts of factors, including how the car feels and responds. I wouldn't be surprised if, after some fresh mods, that it can subtly affect how you drive and your clutch timing (not you in particular but any person). Maybe the driver is concentrating more and enjoying the feeling, maybe the car moving less makes it less distracting. But in terms of what can directly affect the shifting sequence, that seems most likely.

I also agree the larger spread in ratio from first to second makes it harder to get a smooth shift. But that's true of all cars.

 

[chadwicke619]

I'm sure you're right the car is more settled and feels better after your mods. However, part of the shifting system is the human being, and we squishy humans can be affected by all sorts of factors, including how the car feels and responds. I wouldn't be surprised if, after some fresh mods, that it can subtly affect how you drive and your clutch timing (not you in particular but any person). Maybe the driver is concentrating more and enjoying the feeling, maybe the car moving less makes it less distracting. But in terms of what can directly affect the shifting sequence, that seems most likely.

I also agree the larger spread in ratio from first to second makes it harder to get a smooth shift. But that's true of all cars.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Having the car remain planted and settled directly impacts the ability of the person driving to quickly and smoothly shift from 1 > 2. If I tell you to run down a flight of stairs while holding a glass of water, without spilling the water, it will be difficult because you’re holding the glass, and then the water inside is trying to move around as your body jostles around down the stairs. That is what I am suggesting is happening when people have “second gear grind” - it’s not that anything is defective or “fixable” per se, but rather that the subtle unsettling of the car during that big shift makes it difficult to quickly and smoothly make the transition while also trying to go WOT.

If you think deleting your CMC or changing to some other transmission fluid is going to “fix it”, it won’t IMO. If you want to see a real difference in your ability to smoothly make that shift when launching, then you want mods that make things stiffer. Motor mounts connect the engine to the chassis and it (the engine) absolutely moves around in there when you’re launching and shifting - stiffer mounts lessen that movement while increasing NVH. Just one example.

 

[Gansan]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Having the car remain planted and settled directly impacts the ability of the person driving to quickly and smoothly shift from 1 > 2. If I tell you to run down a flight of stairs while holding a glass of water, without spilling the water, it will be difficult because you’re holding the glass, and then the water inside is trying to move around as your body jostles around down the stairs. That is what I am suggesting is happening when people have “second gear grind” - it’s not that anything is defective or “fixable” per se, but rather that the subtle unsettling of the car during that big shift makes it difficult to quickly and smoothly make the transition while also trying to go WOT.

If you think deleting your CMC or changing to some other transmission fluid is going to “fix it”, it won’t IMO. If you want to see a real difference in your ability to smoothly make that shift when launching, then you want mods that make things stiffer. Motor mounts connect the engine to the chassis and it (the engine) absolutely moves around in there when you’re launching and shifting - stiffer mounts lessen that movement while increasing NVH. Just one example.

Sorry I was not very good in how I was explaining myself. We are in agreement according to what you are saying in your first paragraph. I also agree deleting the CMC CDV and changing fluid won't make a fundamental difference. It will feel different, but if there is something mechanically wrong, then the root cause needs to be addressed.

edit: Thank you Keller for the correction.

 

[Integra23]

If you haven't replaced the fluid don't expect a shifter to be buttery smooth. I have done early fluid swaps in all of my manuals (370z nismo, focus rs) and have always seen an improvement in shifter feel. The R is no exception, after swapping to Ravenol 75w80 2nd gear is butter.

Why Ravenol? This is the first time I'm seeing that Brand recommended.

 

[Integra23]

As an update. After adjusting the clutch pedal based on the video and eliminating all of the slop its much better. On down shifting into second i can still feel some resistance similar to a lockout once in awhile. I am hoping a fluid change will help this. Up shifting is alot better and havent had a grind yet but its still early and I havent had the need for an overly quick 1-2 shift since I'm still hesitant.

 

[TurboZed-R]

Why Ravenol? This is the first time I'm seeing that Brand recommended.

It falls within the viscosity range of honda mtf, excellent pour point and not overly viscous when cold. So far it has greatly improved shifting for me.

 

[Bigfx]

As an update. After adjusting the clutch pedal based on the video and eliminating all of the slop its much better. On down shifting into second i can still feel some resistance similar to a lockout once in awhile. I am hoping a fluid change will help this. Up shifting is alot better and havent had a grind yet but its still early and I havent had the need for an overly quick 1-2 shift since I'm still hesitant.

how much play did you have in the clutch pedal?

 

[Integra23]

how much play did you have in the clutch pedal?

Pedal movemet before engagement with the leverage was well over an inch.

 

[007]

Why Ravenol? This is the first time I'm seeing that Brand recommended.

Pretty much the best oil brand in existence atm.

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