Question about lowering springs with stock dampers

[optronix]

Could the under steer be spring dependant, I’m running spoon springs on mine but never got a chance to take mine on track prior to the springs being fitted. Would be gold to hear view of others that have had spoon or other springs fitted to see if it induced under steer on theirs too. I’ve had a full alignment done since fitting the springs.

I won't argue the Spoon spring rates aren't more suited to track use, but the camber settings are going to be pretty consistent. I'm no suspension geek and honestly try to "stay casual" and avoid dicking with those settings in sim racing games and the sort, but how I've always understood it is the science predicts that more negative camber in the rear than the front will lead to understeer.

You can see the added negative camber, visually (I'll concede you do have to look for it...). Here's what I think is a good example, from this thread on the Integra forums I just saw yesterday (free marketing for LMTLS, these are exceptional wheels); I don't know what the specs are on this car but I've seen similar on my car and many others that have springs but otherwise no camber correction:

The only thing you can adjust from an alignment perspective for camber on our cars is pulling the strut tower pins, which as has been stated will net you about half a degree in the front. Otherwise you'll need adjustable lower ball joints, or alternatively "top hat" camber plates with a set of coilovers. It's a relatively simple and inexpensive fix, and most folks who will be interested in track use AND modifying their cars will very likely be inclined to do both. I'm here to recommend that you absolutely do both unless you don't intend to do stuff on track...

edit: on a side note this is surely a dumb question but I have had no luck with online searches and even reached out to Whiteline and received no reply- on our cars, can you even do adjustable camber arms AND roll-center adjusters? Where exactly are they installed? I can't tell from looking at pictures and don't have the practical experience... the roll-center adjusters go on the tie-rod ends, right?? @tezzasaurusrex you surely know this...

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[tezzasaurusrex]

I won't argue the Spoon spring rates aren't more suited to track use, but the camber settings are going to be pretty consistent. I'm no suspension geek and honestly try to "stay casual" and avoid dicking with those settings in sim racing games and the sort, but how I've always understood it is the science predicts that more negative camber in the rear than the front will lead to understeer.

You can see the added negative camber, visually (I'll concede you do have to look for it...). Here's what I think is a good example, from this thread on the Integra forums I just saw yesterday (free marketing for LMTLS, these are exceptional wheels); I don't know what the specs are on this car but I've seen similar on my car and many others that have springs but otherwise no camber correction:

The only thing you can adjust from an alignment perspective for camber on our cars is pulling the strut tower pins, which as has been stated will net you about half a degree in the front. Otherwise you'll need adjustable lower ball joints, or alternatively "top hat" camber plates with a set of coilovers. It's a relatively simple and inexpensive fix, and most folks who will be interested in track use AND modifying their cars will very likely be inclined to do both. I'm here to recommend that you absolutely do both unless you don't intend to do stuff on track...

edit: on a side note this is surely a dumb question but I have had no luck with online searches and even reached out to Whiteline and received no reply- on our cars, can you even do adjustable camber arms AND roll-center adjusters? Where exactly are they installed? I can't tell from looking at pictures and don't have the practical experience... the roll-center adjusters go on the tie-rod ends, right?? @tezzasaurusrex you surely know this...

Hi! That's correct, when you lower the car, natural camber is induced into the rear axle due to the camber curve of the multi link design, whereas the camber curve is very gentle on the front, so much so that between stock height and -20mm it remains the same. Might be worth noting this is not always the case with MacPherson strut cars, for example if you lower the front end of 911 (991, 991.2) or a 981 or 718 Cayman it will actually induce some negative camber as the camber curve is more active on that chassis during that phase of the suspension stroke.

Now it is true that the axle with greater negative camber will tend to grip better laterally, and this would cause the axle with less negative camber to push as a result. However there are other things at play here such as the roll stiffness relationship between front and rear, that will also determine the handling characteristics of the chassis. Given this phenomenon, most FL5/FK8's I install springs on gets the pin pulled, so that the front camber matches the back once it's lowered by 15-20mm, which is around -1.8° front and rear. Sometimes, the rear gains more, depending on how loaded the rear end is (stereo system, cargo, full tank of fuel etc etc.). For track going cars, I ALWAYS recommend to get the Hardrace camber ball joints, as -1.8° with the pins pulled is no where near enough for serious track use, you need more. How much more is determined largely by the tyres being used, the driver's track driving experience, and the surface abrasiveness and corner characteristics of the track itself.
The other solution is to get rear camber arms, and correct the induced camber back to OEM setting, it just depends what the intended use of the car is. For some people, -1.8° is too much.

The camber ball joints are installed to the lower portion of the hub in dual axis assembly.
Roll centre adjusters are installed to the lower housing of the dual axis assembly (two different locations - so yes you can run both)
The Spoon zero bump steer kit is really just a roll centre ball joint. But as with anything to do with suspension, there's always a cause and effect, one affects the other which is a topic for another day.

 

[GIChoe]

I can only find spoon zero bump steer kits for the FK8, will those work fine with the FL5?

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