Market for a more extreme Type R variant

[CG13]

When I saw the announcement of the Toyota GRMN Corolla I thought back to my experience owning an R35 GT-R Nismo and a 991.2 GT3RS, as well as two pretty “extreme“ road cars in an Evora GT and an Ariel NoMad and I thought about whether there would be enough of a market to justify an extreme, track focused version of the FL5 Civic Type R. I would be all over it.

I’ve owned an FL5 for several years and I track it regularly. I see quite a few FK8 and FL5s (and a few DE5s) at track days. I see far more than I expected given the low sales volume of these cars. The most interesting part is that everyone who regularly tracks these cars has to modify them (cooling, camber, brake pads at a minimum). That leads me to believe there is a market out there for a more extreme version.

I was concerned when I saw the HRC concept because I assume what will come from that is a few parts available that don’t constitute significant changes. Most of the mods I see on FL5s are designed for appearance (fake aero, stance, etc) and that’s not what I’m looking for.

Question for the forum, would you be willing to purchase something like this:

Honda Civic Type R HRC Edition

FL5 with the following changes, most can be guided by the JAS TCR car:
https://hondaracing-us.honda.com/-/...hash=567955FF5857AF2D45FAA24C49F5A76279214D7E

Body:
- Front splitter (functional, not for appearance, removable if needed for crash/practicality)
- Carbon vented hood, with removable rain guards
- Carbon roof
- HRC JAS Motorsports rear wing
- Rear Diffuser (functional, not for appearance)
- Wider track front and rear with wider fenders (see JAS TCR car)
- Modified front bumper for more airflow (include mesh Honda setup from JAS car)

Engine:
- Dual oil coolers with front ventilation (see WOT setup as an example)
- High efficiency and capacity radiator
- Transmission cooler
- High efficiency intercooler
- Larger turbo and upgraded fuel system— 400 hp (with a lot more headroom)
- Increase redline to 7500 rpm — upgrade internals as needed
- High flow intake system (partner with Eventuri or similar)
- Strengthened engine mounts
- Lithium battery
- Keep the exhaust setup for emissions, offer race-spec HRC off-road version with ECU and maps

Transmission:
- Keep it the same but with strengthened gears and clutch if needed for the power

Suspension/chassis:
- KW coilover system, fully adjustable (see JAS TCR car)
- True coilover rear suspension with chassis bracing to support (see JAS TCR car)
- 18x10 wheel setup (see JAS TCR car)
- Widened track (see JAS TCR car)
- Optimized ride height
- Adjustable front and rear sway bars for optimal handling
- Heavy duty/billet ball joints across the board
- Revised power steering system (see JAS TCR car)
- Cup 2 variant OEM tire

Brakes:
- AP Racing front and rear (Radical system, steel rotors)
- stainless lines
- Include a street pad, offer track pads through Honda dealers

Interior:
- Front seats — make a lighter, carbon version of the OEM seats that are more supportive and support 6-point harness — or reskin a Recaro or Sparco
- Simplified steering wheel (no buttons), alcantara + carbon/aluminum accents
- Repurpose the left-hand dash controls: TC levels or TC OFF knob, Engine map knob (if HRC exhaust/ECU installed or for aftermarket ECU)
- No driving modes
- Keep the stereo and AC
- Provide provision for 6-point harness mounts in the rear
- Keep the rear seats, make them red to match the front
- No fake engine noise
- Remove sound deadening
- Thinner rear glass
- Remove rear wiper

Target price — MSRP $80,000
Target weight — 2900 lb

This would basically be a street-legal version of the TCR car. Make it feel raw, loud, aggressive with optional HRC exhaust/ECU (see Ducati model for something like the Panigale V4R models).

This would be a halo car that demonstrates Honda’s motorsports chops.

I would purchase immediately, without hesitation.

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[alSpeed2k]

Probably not for $80k. Can we buy that front bumper though?

 

[optronix]

Yeah... just buy the TCR car.

There isn't a market for this.

 

[xpystchrisx]

You aren't talking about a car that's $80,000. You're talking about a car that's $100,000 or more, and it'll probably lose money. Even at the $80,000 mark you're talking about competing with a C8 Z51, which is better.

 

[CG13]

Yeah... just buy the TCR car.

There isn't a market for this.

TCR car is $300k and not remotely street legal. Equivalent to buying a 911 cup or GT4 car instead of a GT3RS.

 

[Cueyo]

I think the market exists for a more track oriented type R, but the price will never justify it. The ARTA FL5 is my ideal track type R, and that's basically the price of an m2 or m3. At that point you change vehicle classes altogether and it becomes hard to justify OEM prices for stuff you can do significantly cheaper aftermarket.

 

[CG13]

You aren't talking about a car that's $80,000. You're talking about a car that's $100,000 or more, and it'll probably lose money. Even at the $80,000 mark you're talking about competing with a C8 Z51, which is better.

I’m sure it would lose money, and I imagine the Type R does already per unit. The value would be in it being a halo or statement car for the brand.

See the GRMN Corolla with price at $65k with the following changes:

- engine tune with additional torque
- intercooler spray system
- different shocks
- wider wheels
- revised power steering
- revised 4wd tuning
- 30kg weight reduction
- custom bucket seats
- adjustable carbon wing
- vented carbon hood
- vented carbon fenders
- carbon side spoilers
- rear strut brace

It is disappointing that Toyota sees a market if Honda doesn’t.

Regarding C8 Z51- it is a completely different car that I would not cross shop simply because the price would be similar.

This would be an experience car and a C8 is a big heavy luxury GT car that has high performance standards. Nothing about a C8 is appealing when compared to a small, light weight, track ready, raw driving experience car.

I hope there are others out there looking for Honda to lean in on real performance and driving experience. What I’m looking for is more in line a Nismo GT-R or a 22B STI or Cosworth RS Escort or 95 Cobra R or GT3RS or from Honda the original Type R NSX or even the RC213V-s or RC30/45 motorcycles.

I think the high end of the market is healthy and people will pay for a low volume experience car.

 

[Cueyo]

I’m sure it would lose money, and I imagine the Type R does already per unit. The value would be in it being a halo or statement car for the brand.

See the GRMN Corolla with price at $65k with the following changes:

- engine tune with additional torque
- intercooler spray system
- different shocks
- wider wheels
- revised power steering
- revised 4wd tuning
- 30kg weight reduction
- custom bucket seats
- adjustable carbon wing
- vented carbon hood
- vented carbon fenders
- carbon side spoilers
- rear strut brace

It is disappointing that Toyota sees a market if Honda doesn’t.

Regarding C8 Z51- it is a completely different car that I would not cross shop simply because the price would be similar.

This would be an experience car and a C8 is a big heavy luxury GT car that has high performance standards. Nothing about a C8 is appealing when compared to a small, light weight, track ready, raw driving experience car.

I hope there are others out there looking for Honda to lean in on real performance and driving experience. What I’m looking for is more in line a Nismo GT-R or a 22B STI or Cosworth RS Escort or 95 Cobra R or GT3RS or from Honda the original Type R NSX or even the RC213V-s or RC30/45 motorcycles.

I think the high end of the market is healthy and people will pay for a low volume experience car.

The stock type R is already pretty heavily leaning into its namesake imo(you even said you see so many on track - how many M cars do you see comparatively?).

When compared to the grmn Corolla, the type R already had a lot of those changes (minus the carbon fiber bogus) built into the package. I could see maybe some aero changes with the hrc or LE edition on the horizon, but how much more is Honda comfortable squeezing out of the car?

Also sidenote, Toyota is currently attempting to make the GR brand, and is pouring tons and tons of money into it. Honda on the other hand continues to play it safe, I think the companies are in a different place rn, and comparison does it not justice. I also dislike Honda's current leadership tho

 

[Higgs Boson]

Bigger turbo and rose joint suspension, change the MSRP from 47 to 49 and leave the rest alone.

 

[CG13]

Bigger turbo and rose joint suspension, change the MSRP from 47 to 49 and leave the rest alone.

I don’t see the point of adding additional power but not addressing cooling or suspension geometry.

 

[xpystchrisx]

I’m sure it would lose money, and I imagine the Type R does already per unit. The value would be in it being a halo or statement car for the brand.

See the GRMN Corolla with price at $65k with the following changes:

- engine tune with additional torque
- intercooler spray system
- different shocks
- wider wheels
- revised power steering
- revised 4wd tuning
- 30kg weight reduction
- custom bucket seats
- adjustable carbon wing
- vented carbon hood
- vented carbon fenders
- carbon side spoilers
- rear strut brace

It is disappointing that Toyota sees a market if Honda doesn’t.

Regarding C8 Z51- it is a completely different car that I would not cross shop simply because the price would be similar.

This would be an experience car and a C8 is a big heavy luxury GT car that has high performance standards. Nothing about a C8 is appealing when compared to a small, light weight, track ready, raw driving experience car.

I hope there are others out there looking for Honda to lean in on real performance and driving experience. What I’m looking for is more in line a Nismo GT-R or a 22B STI or Cosworth RS Escort or 95 Cobra R or GT3RS or from Honda the original Type R NSX or even the RC213V-s or RC30/45 motorcycles.

I think the high end of the market is healthy and people will pay for a low volume experience car.

Take yourself out of the equation and look at what you're talking about. An $80,000 or more car that will have performance that might reach the level of the C8 Z51, M2, etc. I understand what you're getting at but I don't see a market for it. Do I want to see Honda do it? Yeah, I do. Does it make sense? Nope. But I still want to see them do it.
As far as the GRMN, look at what they did and then look at what you were asking for. The GRMN is a light tune, what you're asking for is a complete "tuner" version. If we take a CTR and do what Toyota did with the GRMN Corolla, you're goign to end up with a $70,000 car with a tune and a small bump in performance.
You're very excited and invested in this, so I don't want you to think that I'm arguing with you. I just don't see it happening because, again, you're not talking about an $80,000 car, you're talking about $100,000 or more.

 

[CG13]

The stock type R is already pretty heavily leaning into its namesake imo(you even said you see so many on track - how many M cars do you see comparatively?).

When compared to the grmn Corolla, the type R already had a lot of those changes (minus the carbon fiber bogus) built into the package. I could see maybe some aero changes with the hrc or LE edition on the horizon, but how much more is Honda comfortable squeezing out of the car?

Also sidenote, Toyota is currently attempting to make the GR brand, and is pouring tons and tons of money into it. Honda on the other hand continues to play it safe, I think the companies are in a different place rn, and comparison does it not justice. I also dislike Honda's current leadership tho

I see more BMWs on track than Type Rs, but they also sell a lot more. They’re also usually older models. The newer BMW (M or not) cars are not what I would want Honda to model. They keep getting larger and more tech heavy with too much power in an attempt to compensate.

The GR Corolla is pretty similar to the Type R. The GRMN Corolla makes the additional changes I listed. I would not call the carbon fiber bogus, given it includes vented hood (which the Type R desperately needs for track work), vented fenders (real aero/cooling opportunity), and adjustable wing (real aero). They also delete the backseat, which I would not want on the Type R.

I believe Honda will do some minor LE like they did with the FK8, but that car had minor changes. I’m looking for a true high end version.

 

[CG13]

Take yourself out of the equation and look at what you're talking about. An $80,000 or more car that will have performance that might reach the level of the C8 Z51, M2, etc. I understand what you're getting at but I don't see a market for it. Do I want to see Honda do it? Yeah, I do. Does it make sense? Nope. But I still want to see them do it.
As far as the GRMN, look at what they did and then look at what you were asking for. The GRMN is a light tune, what you're asking for is a complete "tuner" version. If we take a CTR and do what Toyota did with the GRMN Corolla, you're goign to end up with a $70,000 car with a tune and a small bump in performance.
You're very excited and invested in this, so I don't want you to think that I'm arguing with you. I just don't see it happening because, again, you're not talking about an $80,000 car, you're talking about $100,000 or more.

I agree with you - the market would likely be small and I don’t think Honda will do anything like what I’m interested in.

No one is really making the type of car I’m looking for: something in the $100k or less price bracket that’s focused on weight, performance and can run consistently on the track. That probably says something about me! A new S2000 that uses the FL5 engine/transmission but has proper cooling and sub-3000 lb weight might be close enough for me as a more reasonable base.

While there is A LOT of money available at the high end of the car market, I can’t see Honda (or Acura) selling anything that taps into it. If Honda would do what JAS is doing with their NSX variant, I could see it being popular, but you’re talking about the very high end. The recent NSX was a mess - too expensive and too complicated and too heavy and nothing like the original.

 

[Higgs Boson]

I don’t see the point of adding additional power but not addressing cooling or suspension geometry.

I don't see the point in adding all of the pointless mods you listed either just to pick up some milk at the store. I understand some people think this is a race car but for me its a run around town car thats not a boring Camry or similar. It's a fun, do most things car.

There are times I lay into it a little when I run a couple errands and I can feel it out of breath above 4k. I am not going to superheat the IATs or coolant doing that. Any car I have owned with spherical bearings/bushings/rose joints feels noticeable better. For me, nothing else is needed. The title of the thread is whether there is a market for a full rice version, I am simply making the argument that from my perspective, there is not a market for it. And it will look silly. The stock wing is already borderline necessitating wearing a clown nose when you get out of the car.

Don't get me wrong, its one of my favorite cars, I sold my 23 and after a few other cars went back for a 25 just because its a simple fun to drive car, but theres no market for a full retard version.

 

[Cueyo]

I don't see the point in adding all of the pointless mods you listed either just to pick up some milk at the store. I understand some people think this is a race car but for me its a run around town car thats not a boring Camry or similar. It's a fun, do most things car.

There are times I lay into it a little when I run a couple errands and I can feel it out of breath above 4k. I am not going to superheat the IATs or coolant doing that. Any car I have owned with spherical bearings/bushings/rose joints feels noticeable better. For me, nothing else is needed. The title of the thread is whether there is a market for a full rice version, I am simply making the argument that from my perspective, there is not a market for it. And it will look silly. The stock wing is already borderline necessitating wearing a clown nose when you get out of the car.

Don't get me wrong, its one of my favorite cars, I sold my 23 and after a few other cars went back for a 25 just because its a simple fun to drive car, but theres no market for a full retard version.

It's definitely a do it all car, but I'll give pushback on the Camry comparison. I have struggled many many many times to haul as many people and stuff in the boot as I have wanted. The base hatchback has a higher payload and softer ride too. Yeah the type R can be a daily, but I didn't pick it because of that.

I think the aero and looks of the car have been argued to no end and I'll die on the hill that the wing is necessary for what Honda wanted the car to be. Thinking it borders on being clownish just means you should've gotten the ITS. Thats the real comparison to a sporty daily. That or a tlx type S. Imo the type R has no place in the same conversation, ffs the buckets aren't tolerable for more than an hour for me

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