Late Development Speculation

[mbaapk]

With the record breaking lap time announced a month after the fact and reveal this summer….what are they refining right now?

Speculation welcome. Have to think that the R is ready unless Honda is adding a few late game changes?

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[007]

Honda is being considerate. They don’t want to immediately steal the spotlight from Toyota and others with the Type R’s savageness.

 

[TimeRacer]

With the record breaking lap time announced a month after the fact and reveal this summer….what are they refining right now?

Speculation welcome. Have to think that the R is ready unless Honda is adding a few late game changes?

Car still isn't even announced. You're unlikely to see suspension or engine redesigns or big bodywork changes but they're still tweaking spring rates, shock dampening curves, the adjustable damper and steering rates, the last few iterations of sway bars, fuel/boost maps more for efficiency and clean burning than power, drive by wire ramp rates, ABS engagement points and a bunch of primarily computer programming centric items. It's all getting close to production ready but until say 6 mo from actually rolling them off the production line the final hardware design isn't done yet. Then you can continue to tweak the computer side until really post sales if Tesla OTA or day 1 dealer updates and done as part of new car prep process. There's a lot to tweak on today's computer centric cars.

 

[mbaapk]

Car still isn't even announced. You're unlikely to see suspension or engine redesigns or big bodywork changes but they're still tweaking spring rates, shock dampening curves, the adjustable damper and steering rates, the last few iterations of sway bars, fuel/boost maps more for efficiency and clean burning than power, drive by wire ramp rates, ABS engagement points and a bunch of primarily computer programming centric items. It's all getting close to production ready but until say 6 mo from actually rolling them off the production line the final hardware design isn't done yet. Then you can continue to tweak the computer side until really post sales if Tesla OTA or day 1 dealer updates and done as part of new car prep process. There's a lot to tweak on today's computer centric cars.

How can they perf test with all of that to finalize? Sheesh, i’m thinking exhaust note, infotainment and interior touches not refinement that would alter perf specs - that would be interesting.

 

[TimeRacer]

How can they perf test with all of that to finalize? Sheesh, i’m thinking exhaust note, infotainment and interior touches not refinement that would alter perf specs - that would be interesting.

Infotainment is already done as that's part of the launch OS platform. Exhaust note is pretty much done except modified via a tune, not the hardware. Interior is already done. None of that is easily changed within the last months. Shock dampening and rebound curves via electronic control? Easy. Springs? Easy. Sway Bar? Easy. Fuel/spark advance/retardation to help with fuel economy and lower EGT's to fight detonation? That's just fine tuning a tune on a dyno or taking the data from these track sessions and analyzing it and uploading a modified tune to a computer. Again, really easy to do as most of it is a single computer variable change. A lot of what they're doing right now is ride testing with the final performance package(s). Determining which one provides an acceptable ride quality yet yields the most performance.

 

[ASIMO Assassin]

With the record breaking lap time announced a month after the fact and reveal this summer….what are they refining right now?

Speculation welcome. Have to think that the R is ready unless Honda is adding a few late game changes?

Caution, the following is pure speculation and should not be taken too seriously

I think there is some drama going on at Honda. They originally wanted the LE to be the ultimate track weapon, and the new Civic Type-R was supposed to slide in just under the LE, but still above the old generation Type-R.

However, they couldn't get the LE to beat the Megane Trophy RS at the ring. But, this mattered not. The car sold with wild success, becoming highly sought after and raising the image of the Type-R, so they just let it go.

The new Type-R however, MUST reclaim the record. Which is why they were out there again last Fall. But, I feel like the Nürburgring didn't go as planned. It was the LE all over again. What I think happened is they decided to go with the Civic Si game plan and just do minor handling and aero tweaks with not much power increase. Then they take it to the track with an ace driver and squeeze out a new record. But, they just couldn't beat that pesky Megane RS Trophy, or even the old 10th gen for that matter. Disaster!

So in a tizzy, they retreated back to Japan and stared at it for a while. Finally, they said fuck the LE. and just went for it by adding gobs more power. Honda being Honda, they would have had to strengthen components and braking over and above their original plan.

Next thing you know, they are easily setting the track record at Suzuka, knocking the LE off it's podium. Next stop, Nürburgring. From where I sit, it is looking like a feverish obsession to pull this off by Honda.... which is a great things for enthusiasts.

This could be a work of fiction.... but if you see it coming with 350~360hp instead of the 330hp they originally were targeting, there might be a glimmer of truth to it!

 

[avalanche011]

I think the tire width difference alone can cover the 9/10th time difference on the course, assuming like for like tires. Doubt there will be a power difference. I hate to be a pessimist, but its Honda we are talking about. History has proved, they don't just hand out HP willy nilly. I think they are sitting there wondering if they really are going to put 265/30 19s on the car. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[007]

I think Honda waited for Toyota to unveil the GR Corolla. Speaking of which, Toyota shocked a lot of people with that bliss 300 hp number. Few believed they would actually raise the GR Yaris output by an additional ~35 hp. And it’s probably grossly underrated, too.

While not exactly a direct competitor, it’s generating a lot of hype, which I believe may influence final specs on the Type R.

 

[mbaapk]

I think Honda waited for Toyota to unveil the GR Corolla. Speaking of which, Toyota shocked a lot of people with that bliss 300 hp number. Few believed they would actually raise the GR Yaris output by an additional ~35 hp. And it’s probably grossly underrated, too.

While not exactly a direct competitor, it’s generating a lot of hype, which I believe may influence final specs on the Type R.

Thats a really good point. Revealing 330+ hp would definitely separate things a little bit.

 

[Shankmeyster]

Hopefully they took the issues with the 10th and perfected it with better cooling for the engine and brakes.

 

[TimeRacer]

I think Honda waited for Toyota to unveil the GR Corolla. Speaking of which, Toyota shocked a lot of people with that bliss 300 hp number. Few believed they would actually raise the GR Yaris output by an additional ~35 hp. And it’s probably grossly underrated, too.

While not exactly a direct competitor, it’s generating a lot of hype, which I believe may influence final specs on the Type R.

I highly doubt that Honda was waiting to see final specs from a semi-competitor car in order to determine their own final specs of their own car. There's simply not enough time to do the track and internal testing then re-submitting vehicles to appropriate testing authorities once you start needing to change physical parts from the engine design. The current backlog in getting the tool steel presses and forging to even start production is so far behind that if they didn't have the final internal engine or suspension design ready by now, it's going to be on the production line LATE 2023 at earliest if this were the case.

Though as I've said numerous times in a few places, the GrC is zero threat to the Civic Type-R in terms of being a track leader in the US. As the GrY is everything the GrC is and then some having a better power to weight ratio, shorter wheelbase, carrying less weight while having the same suspension and driveline. Everything indicates the only place the GrC is going to be faster than the GrY is top speed runs having the bonus horsepower, that's it. Being on the vast majority of tracks the Civic Type-R wins (sometimes by a fair margin) there really is no threat from the GrC in the US for the fastest stock track focused hatchback.

As for Nurburgring, I highly doubt that's what happened unless the spy shots from people who frequent the track missed the prepped track record run vehicle. Remember, the last record was set by a car with a full roll cage, infotainment removed, gutted rear seat and hatch along with the top echelon barely street legal semi-slicks. Also remember the track record was set post unveil. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a power bump as manufacturers show off their last purely ICE motors. Unfortunately we know this is the last Civic Type-R to be powered purely by a ICE motor. Though it's still a FWD vehicle, getting close to 330-350hp is about the limit before you have traction control activating all the time going in a straight line which doesn't make the car any faster. But this is all speculation and knowing the boxes that have to be ticked before getting a car into production. As I think we're mainly working with the speculation the car will be released and on sale early to mid 2023. If we're talking about getting into 2024, then anything is possible as it's still early enough in the development cycle.

 

[mbaapk]

The new type r market is the xennial crowd that grew up on jdm and fast and the furious. Its not the same as the grc crowd.

In terms of hp - no need to retool, a simple tune tweak would do it. The car is not made to dig race so not sure it needs much more anyway.

 

[TimeRacer]

The new type r market is the xennial crowd that grew up on jdm and fast and the furious. Its not the same as the grc crowd.

In terms of hp - no need to retool, a simple tune tweak would do it. The car is not made to dig race so not sure it needs much more anyway.

Unfortunately that's not how it works on the manufacturer side. You can do that in the aftermarket but can't do that as the OEM. They're worried about a .5 decrease in MPG, and 20ppm increase in emissions as they're paying a 'usage fee' for their entire brand's carbon footprint in many countries. Same reason why the GrY got so many engine upgrades (new pistons, exhaust, valve springs and likely others will be revealed) in order to make 35hp in the GrC when the aftermarket hits that with just a tune. Expect the same from Honda if they're going to be changing the power by 20+hp.

BTW the Corolla shares the same crowd to a degree. As it captures the STi/Evo/Focus RS/rally/X-games crowd along has the name of Corolla to capture the Initial D and Best Motoring Keiichi Tsuchiya/Drift King fans. There's a ton of overlap between the two.

 

[TMM]

I think that given Honda have been producing the turbo K20C for 7 years and in that time only 'upgraded' it to produce an extra 10hp, I don't think you're going to see a substantial redevelopment of it. Maybe they can eek another 5-10hp out of it without making 'major' changes.

The development of the GrY engine for the GrC shows totally different intent, since this is being done merely 2 years into the life cycle.

 

[mbaapk]

Unfortunately that's not how it works on the manufacturer side. You can do that in the aftermarket but can't do that as the OEM. They're worried about a .5 decrease in MPG, and 20ppm increase in emissions as they're paying a 'usage fee' for their entire brand's carbon footprint in many countries. Same reason why the GrY got so many engine upgrades (new pistons, exhaust, valve springs and likely others will be revealed) in order to make 35hp in the GrC when the aftermarket hits that with just a tune. Expect the same from Honda if they're going to be changing the power by 20+hp.

BTW the Corolla shares the same crowd to a degree. As it captures the STi/Evo/Focus RS/rally/X-games crowd along has the name of Corolla to capture the Initial D and Best Motoring Keiichi Tsuchiya/Drift King fans. There's a ton of overlap between the two.

Fair - my point on the market side is that with this gen im betting that the average buyer is much older than prior gen and to the older crowd that corolla is just not palatable.

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