Questions for the K20C1 engine experts here.

[VLJ]

After months of phone calls and haggling, I was finally able to land a new 2024 Type R in Boost Blue at msrp, with zero dealer markup or Mickey Mouse dealer add-ons. (It still has an utterly ridiculous $25,000 "market adjustment" addendum sticker next to the Munroney.) Anyway, I'm picking it up tomorrow. This will be my fourth Civic, but my first R, and my first turbo Honda.

My questions...

— How well, if at all, does this engine and its direct injection cope with carbon buildup on the intake valves? Is it as bad as it's been on so many other DI-only engines (not necessarily Hondas), requiring walnut blasting or something similar to remove the buildup of carbon sludge from the valves, or the use of oil catch cans that may or may not actually help?

— Are oil catch cans even a thing with this engine?

— Will Honda attempt to claim that catch cans invalidate the warranty?

— Is it true that Honda is presently using some sort of special break-in engine oil that precludes my usual practice of doing an oil change within the first thousand miles, and every five thousand miles thereafter? I've read where Honda strongly recommends going five thousand or even as much as ten thousand miles on the initial oil, which seems insane to me, but supposedly this is necessary because of this crazy break-in oil that has to be allowed to remain in the engine to do its job. I couldn't tell, however, whether this was a current Honda recommendation or some very old, boilerplate-style info from long ago that is no longer relevant today.

I'm aware of the usual recommended engine break-in procedures, such as constantly varying the RPM over the first few hundred miles, avoiding lugging or redlining the motor until I've hit a thousand miles, no hero launches on a cold motor, etc., but this thing about the break-in engine oil mileage requirement is news to me.

— Assuming I always change the oil on time using high-quality oil, in addition to using high-quality 91-octane fuel, and I stay on top of all the other maintenance items just as religiously, is it reasonable to expect anything like my previous Honda and Toyota NA motors' easy 250,000-miles engine life, or is this simply a pipedream now with DI, a high-heat turbo, and the stock motor's relatively aggressive state of tune?

This car will likely never see a track or autocross circuit. It will be a daily driver in a non-snowy part of northern California, and it will spend many of its days ripping around our various canyon roads and mountain passes. It will see redline quite frequently once it's broken in, but nothing too abusive.

In other words, it will never be pushed exceedingly hard. Compared to many other Type Rs, this one should have a relatively easy life. I'm just hoping that it won't be a ticking time bomb/endless money pit, which is the primary reason I chose the Type R over the other car I was considering, the BMW M240i. The thought of owning one of those out of warranty was a bit too scary. When it comes to longterm reliability and lower maintenance costs, I trust Honda a whole lot more than I would ever trust any modern BMW.

Still, this is no normal Honda....

Sponsored

 

[TypeRD]

Man, that’s a long list of questions, but here’s an easy answer to the main one a new owner would need right away : Break-in is only 1000 km. It is listed in the EU owner’s manuals, but was somehow missed in the US manuals. Maybe they’ve fixed this oversight since the first 2-3 waves of deliveries, but I doubt it. With that in mind, your question about break-in oil is basically answered too.

I’ve helped you a bit. Your other questions…just do some research and reading. There’s so much info available everywhere and much to learn along the way. Not trying to be a jerk, but at least do some of your own legwork as others have.

 

[CTR]

Your wall of questions is overwhelming but I will say this:

You are buying essentially the second generation of this engine. A lot of the early issues were either not a problem or were figured it out during the FK8 generation. Honda has been producing some of the best ICE powerplants for decades and took a long time to adopt direct injection and turbochargers. They chose not to risk their brand with unproven technology unlike some of the domestic manufacturers.

If the engineers at Honda decided that 5000ish miles was good enough for the first oil change they probably did it for a reason. Metallurgy, machining tolerances, and engineering of lubricants have come a long way in the last 20 years. We know they put a special blend in from the factory to help with the break-in period. It's your choice whether to trust them or your gut instinct to get rid of that "dirty" oil.

I personally chose to wait until 5000 miles because I think it makes sense that they put a special blend in rather than whatever off-the-shelf factory oil they could choose for marketing reasons. It's the only time in the entire life of the engine that they know the conditions. Why wouldn't they put a special blend in to help prevent engine wear during this period?

We're all weirdos on this forum. It probably makes no difference when you change the oil in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Ac12]

Here's a vid on that subject make of this what u will...but I'm at 1800kms with a tundra and will change it out this weekend.. when the type R hits 1k will probably change that out as well...most likely a waste of money and resources lol...

 

[VLJ]

I’ve helped you a bit. Your other questions…just do some research and reading. There’s so much info available everywhere and much to learn along the way. Not trying to be a jerk, but at least do some of your own legwork as others have.

I've been doing endless legwork. Months and months of it, reading everything I can find, which led me here. Most of that legwork, I referenced in my post. So much conflicting information, so many differing opinions. No real facts.

Coming here is simply doing more legwork. The hope is that someone here on the 11th Gen Type R forum will have correct answers to those specific questions, as opposed to what most people offer, which is generally accepted lore that we all "know."

As I mentioned, this thing about a break-in specific oil is news to me. I haven't been able to find a definitive answer as to whether this is true today, on the FL5, or is it a relic passed along from the past, and people still accept it as gospel without knowing whether it's still true. This question goes directly to the question of the break-in oil duration; not the overall break-in period, but the bit about leaving the oil in long past the stated break-in period for the engine. Those two things used to go hand in hand.

Now, possibly, they don't?

Plenty of European manufacturers have landed on 10,000 miles as their oil-change interval, and many of us scoff at such a number, knowing how unreliable so many of those cars have proven to be. Professional mechanics the world over roll their eyes at such things, along with "lifetime" transmission oil, and other such wild claims stated in owner's manuals.

Also, it's not as if Honda hasn't had issues themselves, especially with their recent turbo motors. Yes, Honda and Toyota tend to be more conservative in regards to rushing unproven technology into production, and still Honda suffered quite a bit with the new turbos on the CR-V and Civic. It happens, even for mighty Honda.

Thus, my questions about this K20C1 motor.

Legwork.

 

[VLJ]

Here's a vid on that subject make of this what u will...but I'm at 1800kms with a tundra and will change it out this weekend.. when the type R hits 1k will probably change that out as well...most likely a waste of money and resources lol...

I've seen that video, and it matches everything I've always "known" to be true about getting the break-in oil out right away, after only 500 or 600 miles, as he recommends. I've always done this on my own cars, and recommended it to my customers. I was planning on doing it on the Type R, without using one of Toyota's freebie oil changes in the first two years.

But then I read that Honda is adamantly against this practice, because they use a special break-in oil that has to remain in the engine for many thousands of miles in order for it to complete its mission. What I wasn't able to determine was whether that was very old advice, or is it some new thing of which I was unaware?

I called the service department. The service writer said what nearly all dealership service writers say: "We recommend that you follow the owner's manual. That's the schedule we use and recommend."

When I asked about this extended break-in oil duration, he was clearly at a loss. He was unable to offer any information on it, admitting that he had no idea. "If that's what Honda recommends, then that's what we recommend."

Useless.

Back to square one....

 

[s2kdriver80]

In the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter all that much.

I did oil changes in my S2000 every 3,750 miles (including the first one) and sold the car at 315k miles, with no engine issues. I have 45k miles on my FK8 and have changed the oil every 5k miles (including the first one) - no problems. I babied both cars during the first thousand miles (went 400 extra miles over the recommended amount, for good measure), and afterwards, never hesitated to go WOT in either (after being fully warmed up of course).

Billman, my local S2000 mechanic over on the s2ki boards who probably has the most experience in the world working on S2000s (outside of some Honda engineers), floored his brand new AP1 right out of the dealer parking lot to vacuum-seal the piston rings and his motor was going strong as ever past 100k miles, the last time I checked. And this guy really pushes the car and drives HARD. So not sure what to believe anymore.

I wouldn't stress it too much and do what you're psychologically comfortable with.

My half a million-kilometer (~310k miles) celebration run in my stock AP1...

 

[ABPDE5]

K20C1 is actually on its 3rd iteration in the "Type-R" guise. It was used in the FK2 (no US variant), FK8, and now the FL/DE5.

Honda has made some changes w. each model update, but they are minor (FK8 > FL/DE5 includes new pistons -- I believe the coating is different -- and a new turbo). This is a well proven platform.

Yes, the 1.5l engine has its issues. Certainly, they are not catastrophic, but I would agree that the L15 doesn't live up to Honda's engine reputation; K20C does. I wouldn't be excited to buy an L15 car (not to overreact), but I was excited to get a K20C equipped one. (I've older NA owned K20s in the past and still have a 180k mile 8th gen Si).

The stock tune is actually pretty conservative on this car (the DE5 comes w. a more aggressive tune stock, and both have a lot of room for tuning gains even when left otherwise stock), and if you let the engine warm up / cool down before / after hard driving, you don't lug the engine (high throttle usage at low RPM, especially in higher gear), and you keep your oil changes regular, this engine should last.

My understanding is the break-in oil myth is just that. But, Honda's recommended oil (Honda Type-2) has a very high moly count and is well regarded (BITOG, etc.).

Assuming you go beyond stock:
1. The weak point of this engine is the connecting rods, which aren't forged. In a stock or responsibly tuned setup, this is a non-issue. Early in the K20C lifecycle, tuners were putting in huge low RPM torque requests, which put undue strain on the rods. This lead to an incorrect assumption that the K20C was not as stout a platform as the K20A and Z predecessors. That's not actually the case; those motors would also see failure if they saw similar low-end torque requests. It is just that their head design (which was built for NA application) favored high RPM flow and the aftermarket turbos they were paired with were larger than the ones we see bolted to stock K20Cs and produced their power / torque higher in the RPM range.
2. The first bottleneck for the FL/DE5 variant is the turbo; it's tiny (followed by the fuel pump, and then injectors). If you are going to tune, etc., make sure your tuner doesn't ask too much of the rods down low (by now, well established tuners and OTS vendors know better). There is also a ton of aftermarket support for this motor, from simply OTS tunes to fully-built, high output endurance racing applications (see 4Piston, etc.).

 

[NoelPR]

After months of phone calls and haggling, I was finally able to land a new 2024 Type R in Boost Blue at msrp, with zero dealer markup or Mickey Mouse dealer add-ons. (It still has an utterly ridiculous $25,000 "market adjustment" addendum sticker next to the Munroney.) Anyway, I'm picking it up tomorrow. This will be my fourth Civic, but my first R, and my first turbo Honda.

My questions...

— How well, if at all, does this engine and its direct injection cope with carbon buildup on the intake valves? Is it as bad as it's been on so many other DI-only engines (not necessarily Hondas), requiring walnut blasting or something similar to remove the buildup of carbon sludge from the valves, or the use of oil catch cans that may or may not actually help?

— Are oil catch cans even a thing with this engine?

— Will Honda attempt to claim that catch cans invalidate the warranty?

— Is it true that Honda is presently using some sort of special break-in engine oil that precludes my usual practice of doing an oil change within the first thousand miles, and every five thousand miles thereafter? I've read where Honda strongly recommends going five thousand or even as much as ten thousand miles on the initial oil, which seems insane to me, but supposedly this is necessary because of this crazy break-in oil that has to be allowed to remain in the engine to do its job. I couldn't tell, however, whether this was a current Honda recommendation or some very old, boilerplate-style info from long ago that is no longer relevant today.

I'm aware of the usual recommended engine break-in procedures, such as constantly varying the RPM over the first few hundred miles, avoiding lugging or redlining the motor until I've hit a thousand miles, no hero launches on a cold motor, etc., but this thing about the break-in engine oil mileage requirement is news to me.

— Assuming I always change the oil on time using high-quality oil, in addition to using high-quality 91-octane fuel, and I stay on top of all the other maintenance items just as religiously, is it reasonable to expect anything like my previous Honda and Toyota NA motors' easy 250,000-miles engine life, or is this simply a pipedream now with DI, a high-heat turbo, and the stock motor's relatively aggressive state of tune?

This car will likely never see a track or autocross circuit. It will be a daily driver in a non-snowy part of northern California, and it will spend many of its days ripping around our various canyon roads and mountain passes. It will see redline quite frequently once it's broken in, but nothing too abusive.

In other words, it will never be pushed exceedingly hard. Compared to many other Type Rs, this one should have a relatively easy life. I'm just hoping that it won't be a ticking time bomb/endless money pit, which is the primary reason I chose the Type R over the other car I was considering, the BMW M240i. The thought of owning one of those out of warranty was a bit too scary. When it comes to longterm reliability and lower maintenance costs, I trust Honda a whole lot more than I would ever trust any modern BMW.

Still, this is no normal Honda....

1. There isn't proof out there about a trend of carbon build up problems in Honda DI engines.

2. The easiest way to avoid problems with a warranty claim is to not install aftermarket parts like a catch can. If that worries you, don't bother during the warranty period.

3. 1st engine change?
Here is your answer from a valid source.


4. 250K miles on these engine?
There isn't enough data out there to know that yet.
The K20C engine came out on FK2 CTR (europe), not enough years in the road to know their longterm reliability but so far the engine seems to be pretty good.

 

[TypeRD]

@VLJ I already thanklessly answered your question about break-in, which then applies to the break-in oil. If break-in is specified as 1000km…then why do you think the original oil MUST stay in the car past 1000km? It doesn’t. Continuing down this rabbit hole of whether the car has break-in oil or not and whether to keep it in there is apparently driving you crazy. Why even bother? You’re doing unnecessary leg work. The ONLY fact (specified by Honda themselves) is 1000km for break-in. After that, change the oil as much as you want or per the maintenance minder or a minimum of once per year. Everyone here will tell you the same

The Honda turbo engines with the most troubles are the 1.5T, which is a newer engine. You surely found this in your legwork, yet our focus is the K20C1. This is an unrelated engine. The K20 has been around for a long time, though has evolved to direct injection and now turbo. Keep in mind a variant of this engine is also used in the Accord 2.0T, Acura RDX, and maybe some others. Surely in months of research you found this info. Did you read of any reports of widespread engine issues in those vehicles or the FK8?

Again, I feel like you’re banging your head against a wall unnecessarily. I know there’s misleading info out there, but it’s not that hard to weed out what’s factual and what’s gibberish and who is smart, reasonable, and experienced vs those who aren’t (on forums or wherever you’re getting info).

 

[VLJ]

s2kdriver, 315K miles on your s2000 is tremendous. Great to hear. I did 350K miles on a '77 Civic, which I bought with 127K miles already on the clock, and sold to a courier in L.A. who continued using it on the job even with those 350K miles.

ABPDE5, no worries there, as I won't be tuning or otherwise modding the engine, other than maybe to eliminate any rev hang. I won't be shooting for more power, or more crackles and pops, or anything like that. My preference is to leave it stock. Most reviewers say there is little to no rev hang. A few have mentioned it, but they describe it as minor, and not an issue. Here on this board, people in Hondata threads often describe it as horrendous.

I tend to think that's hyperbole. I'm fairly certain it won't prove bothersome to me, and I'll be able to leave the tune stock.

NoelPR, regarding the use of catch cans with this motor, I tend to agree with you. I think I'll leave well enough alone. In a worst-case scenario, I'd rather have to clean the valves than risk losing my warranty. I haven't come across any FL5/FK8 owners who went with a catch can, and there is likely a solid reason for this.

TypeRD, I don't think the break-in oil MUST stay in the car past 1000km. I merely repeated what I've read about some strange break-in oil with which I'm not familiar, and asked for clarification. In terms of the actual engine break-in procedure, it seems nothing has changed there. Otherwise, thanks for the info.

 

[TypeRD]

@VLJ No problem.

Regarding catch cans, the only folks using them are those who track their cars regularly. I don’t know of anyone here who uses a catch can just for street driving.

 

[VLJ]

Catch cans are a big thing among the VW crowd, with their DI causing so much valve gunking over the years. I've heard nurmerous Mazda and Honda people say that carbon buildup is not an issue with their cars, because the motors are designed to prevent this, but they can never point to the specific engineering that prevents the issue.

If Honda has managed to prevent carbon buildup on the intake valves with their DI-only motors, I'd love to know how they're doing it. So far, I haven't found any solid explanation, which leads me to believe that it's likely a myth.

I don't know.

 

[ABPDE5]

Catch cans are a big thing among the VW crowd, with their DI causing so much valve gunking over the years. I've heard nurmerous Mazda and Honda people say that carbon buildup is not an issue with their cars, because the motors are designed to prevent this, but they can never point to the specific engineering that prevents the issue.

If Honda has managed to prevent carbon buildup on the intake valves with their DI-only motors, I'd love to know how they're doing it. So far, I haven't found any solid explanation, which leads me to believe that it's likely a myth.

I don't know.

They have not prevented it. It occurs at a pretty slow rate, though, compared to some other manufacturers.

There are several threads on here discussing PCV / CCV catch cans, and the general consensus is:
CCV is essentially useless and catches nothing;
PCV varies... several folks have taken them off their cars after they caught a very minimal amount of blow by, others want the peace of mind. I don't think I've seen a documented example of significant accumulation.

 

[TypeRD]

Catch cans are a big thing among the VW crowd, with their DI causing so much valve gunking over the years. I've heard nurmerous Mazda and Honda people say that carbon buildup is not an issue with their cars, because the motors are designed to prevent this, but they can never point to the specific engineering that prevents the issue.

If Honda has managed to prevent carbon buildup on the intake valves with their DI-only motors, I'd love to know how they're doing it. So far, I haven't found any solid explanation, which leads me to believe that it's likely a myth.

I don't know.

What’s interesting is that there’s virtually no info about any widespread issues with Honda’s DI engines. They’ve been making DI engines for what…over 10 years now? Surely we would see gunk reports stemming from cars that are this old and well over 100k miles, but there are none. This tells me that comparing Honda’s DI engines with others is not a valid comparison. I’m certain you’ve read as many things as I have from armchair engineers claiming that all DI engines are faulty inherently. I think both Honda and Toyota have proven these “experts” wrong by now. Guess they figured out a smarter way to build an engine. Imagine that!

Sponsored