Aftermarket Dipstick for K20C1?

[TypeRD]

@ABPDE5 I get what you’re saying, but keep in mind that Honda developed the engines and developed the standards for their engines. Even if the dipstick is “generic” it is still designed to fit their standard…not the other way around. Deviating from that standard, which I’m sure Honda spent MUCH more time developing than Wunderladen, is what is being scrutinized.

It’s a similar story with oil filters. They’re a standard size and there are specific reasons for using the correct oil filter with any given engine. Imagine if Wunderladen made a slightly different sized oil filter than standard for our vehicles and said “We tested and developed this. It works!” Would you simply trust it or would you want to know why they deviated from the standard?

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[AspecR]

I have decided I like the OEM one better, mine is black and will have it for sale here soon but if you want it let me know. Ill take $49 shipped/paypalled (I paid $70 + tax if I remember correctly). Was in the car for a week, looks brand new and will be packaged same way I received it

I'll DM you

 

[ABPDE5]

@ABPDE5 I get what you’re saying, but keep in mind that Honda developed the engines and developed the standards for their engines. Even if the dipstick is “generic” it is still designed to fit their standard…not the other way around. Deviating from that standard, which I’m sure Honda spent MUCH more time developing than Wunderladen, is what is being scrutinized.

It’s a similar story with oil filters. They’re a standard size and there are specific reasons for using the correct oil filter with any given engine. Imagine if Wunderladen made a slightly different sized oil filter than standard for our vehicles and said “We tested and developed this. It works!” Would you simply trust it or would you want to know why they deviated from the standard?

I don't believe the factory dipstick reflects the standard, though; I think it's probably minimum viable product. I'm sure Honda took the time to figure out what the real measurements should be but that they didn't want to take on the expense of manufacturing plastic dipstick tips for that standard. The standard is probably on a notepad or an Excel doc somewhere at HQ; it's probably not reflected on the dipstick.

I could be wrong, but I believe that the orange plastic piece probably has a small enough range for, say, the L15 engines, and that Honda, understanding that the applicable range will be larger for their 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5, etc. liter engines just decided it was "good enough" and chose to save 15c per dipstick rather than build specific dipsticks for each engine / oil pan combination.

And, I'd assume the same with oil filters (feel free to go down the rabbit hole of the different Honda filter variations based on OEM, lol... it's clear Honda is comfortable with a range of requirements). I'm sure a Wix filter, or something similar, is fine, even if the size or filtration characteristics aren't exactly the same.

(I am using the factory dipstick and factory filters, fyi. I just think people are assuming Honda is above "good enough", and I think their trajectory over the last ~15 years shows that's no longer the case and that "good enough" has become their goal.)

 

[TypeRD]

Some of us here don’t like making changes like this to our cars based on “probably” and “maybe.” Some of us are engineers and/or work closely with the manufacturing world and understand what goes into creating standards. It’s A LOT of fucking work! If you believe Honda is just basically winging it with their standards with millions of dollars and their reputation on the line, that’s your prerogative. I simply don’t agree. Despite some engineering slips in recent years, they still have to run a tight ship or go down with it. End of story.

Note that oil filter makers have to meet standards set by the engine manufacturer too. Again, if Wunderladen deviated from standards, would you trust it or would you want to know why? I’m not talking about design differences as you allude to. I’m talking about deviation from standards. The latter is a different issue than a design difference.

Also no, I don’t believe the dipstick is the same between the L15 and K20. Note that Wunderladen even offers separate dipsticks.

 

[ctechauto]

Some of us here don’t like making changes like this to our cars based on “probably” and “maybe.” Some of us are engineers and/or work closely with the manufacturing world and understand what goes into creating standards. It’s A LOT of fucking work! If you believe Honda is just basically winging it with their standards with millions of dollars and their reputation on the line, that’s your prerogative. I simply don’t agree. Despite some engineering slips in recent years, they still have to run a tight ship or go down with it. End of story.

Note that oil filter makers have to meet standards set by the engine manufacturer too. Again, if Wunderladen deviated from standards, would you trust it or would you want to know why? I’m not talking about design differences as you allude to. I’m talking about deviation from standards. The latter is a different issue than a design difference.

Also no, I don’t believe the dipstick is the same between the L15 and K20. Note that Wunderladen even offers separate dipsticks.

You and I are on the same page. Its not necessarily the changes we are questioning, its the arrival to said changes that had zero explanation until someone or multiple someones reached out and they finally updated their website to reflect 'some' explanation. They still dont fully explain what is the high mark in terms of volume and why the lower mark is lower (who runs their oil that low anyway, and especially they said the dipstick was basically for their track customers, that makes it even weirder they have a lower low mark? Zero data behind it)

As an engineer, shop owner and mechanic, this product pisses me off

 

[TypeRD]

You and I are on the same page. Its not necessarily the changes we are questioning, its the arrival to said changes that had zero explanation until someone or multiple someones reached out and they finally updated their website to reflect 'some' explanation. They still dont fully explain what is the high mark in terms of volume and why the lower mark is lower (who runs their oil that low anyway, and especially they said the dipstick was basically for their track customers, that makes it even weirder they have a lower low mark? Zero data behind it)

As an engineer, shop owner and mechanic, this product pisses me off

Had Wunderladen simply provided explanation AND included the OEM marks in the design (for visual reference to Honda’s standard), I’d LOVE the product! I’d likely have one now! Without the standard markings, Wunderladen’s high and low marks are simply not as helpful as they should be.

Defending Wunderladen’s engineering while taking a swipe at Honda’s is wild to me too, but here we are. I hope Wunderladen fixes it. I think it’s a nice product otherwise.

 

[ctechauto]

Had Wunderladen simply provided explanation AND included the OEM marks in the design (for visual reference to Honda’s standard), I’d LOVE the product! I’d likely have one now! Without the standard markings, Wunderladen’s high and low marks are simply not helpful as they should be.

Defending Wunderladen’s engineering while taking a swipe at Honda’s is wild to me too, but here we are. I hope Wunderladen fixes it. I think it’s a nice product otherwise.

I'd be carrying this in the shop selling to all my customers and putting them on all of our shop cars if that was the case!

 

[ABPDE5]

Some of us here don’t like making changes like this to our cars based on “probably” and “maybe.” Some of us are engineers and/or work closely with the manufacturing world and understand what goes into creating standards. It’s A LOT of fucking work! If you believe Honda is just basically winging it with their standards with millions of dollars and their reputation on the line, that’s your prerogative. I simply don’t agree. Despite some engineering slips in recent years, they still have to run a tight ship or go down with it. End of story.

Note that oil filter makers have to meet standards set by the engine manufacturer too. Again, if Wunderladen deviated from standards, would you trust it or would you want to know why? I’m not talking about design differences as you allude to. I’m talking about deviation from standards. The latter is a different issue than a design difference.

Also no, I don’t believe the dipstick is the same between the L15 and K20. Note that Wunderladen even offers separate dipsticks.

I've been very clear I expect the dipstick length to be different, just the tip to be the same (i.e. the high / low range). It feels like you are intentionally attempting to misrepresent something I've been very specific about, here.

Defending Wunderladen’s engineering while taking a swipe at Honda’s is wild to me too, but here we are. I hope Wunderladen fixes it. I think it’s a nice product otherwise.

Not sure if this was directed at me... I also never advocated for using the Wunderladen dipstick, their process, whether their solution is better, etc. And, I never defended their engineering. I actually explicitly stated I wasn't advocating for their product.

A different approach, like the Wunderladen dipstick, warrants suspicion! I've never said otherwise. But, just because it's different, doesn't mean it's bad, or wrong, or worse. It could be; it could also be more accurate. It sounds like we're in agreement with that, but a lot of the discussion in this thread seems to revolve around the understanding that the high / low marks on the factory dipstick were specifically and painstakingly tailored to this engine / oil pan combination, and -- again, assumption -- that would shock me.

Wunderladen's choice not to originally outline why their product is different is curious. It certainly would help their business if they had been upfront about it. And, it would have been easier for them to offer a "clone" of the OEM solution. For all we know, their explanation is BS and it wasn't tailored at all. I don't know either way, and I haven't argued for or against their dipstick (but have -- in both my posts -- clarified I'm using the OEM solution). I just find the level of reverence in this thread for the plastic tip laughable.

 

[Cueyo]

I just find the level of reverence in this thread for the plastic tip laughable.

 

[TypeRD]

I've been very clear I expect the dipstick length to be different, just the tip to be the same (i.e. the high / low range). It feels like you are intentionally attempting to misrepresent something I've been very specific about, here.



Not sure if this was directed at me... I also never advocated for using the Wunderladen dipstick, their process, whether their solution is better, etc. And, I never defended their engineering. I actually explicitly stated I wasn't advocating for their product.

A different approach, like the Wunderladen dipstick, warrants suspicion! I've never said otherwise. But, just because it's different, doesn't mean it's bad, or wrong, or worse. It could be; it could also be more accurate. It sounds like we're in agreement with that, but a lot of the discussion in this thread seems to revolve around the understanding that the high / low marks on the factory dipstick were specifically and painstakingly tailored to this engine / oil pan combination, and -- again, assumption -- that would shock me.

Wunderladen's choice not to originally outline why their product is different is curious. It certainly would help their business if they had been upfront about it. And, it would have been easier for them to offer a "clone" of the OEM solution. For all we know, their explanation is BS and it wasn't tailored at all. I don't know either way, and I haven't argued for or against their dipstick (but have -- in both my posts -- clarified I'm using the OEM solution). I just find the level of reverence in this thread for the plastic tip laughable.

Perhaps we’re more on the same page than I understood. Where we seem to diverge is on the topic of the OE stick and its markings. They’re there for a reason. We know that. However, no one here is an engineer for Honda, so speculating on their accuracy and/or possible lack of keeping a tight ship on their standards, is really not helpful to anyone. All we know is that Wunderladen changed it. As such, they also made it rather suspect and less useful, since there’s no reference to the OE markings on it. OE is the standard for which all aftermarket parts should be measured, including in cases like this where the product might indeed be better! They should have kept the OE reference point in addition to the “suggested” high/low marks they made. I don’t think anyone disagrees that this would improve the usefulness of the product. That’s all we want…and it seems like Wunderladen could easily do it if they choose to. Hopefully they take the feedback to heart and understand they will sell more dipsticks this way.

 

[ABPDE5]

They still dont fully explain... ...why the lower mark is lower (who runs their oil that low anyway, and especially they said the dipstick was basically for their track customers, that makes it even weirder they have a lower low mark? Zero data behind it)

All I can think of is that -- probably -- nobody is intentionally running their oil that low, but in the event of a low oil level measurement, they might want to know how dangerous the situation really is (and a more specific"absolute low" level marking might make that more clear than a "conservative low" level marking).

 

[ctechauto]

All I can think of is that -- probably -- nobody is intentionally running their oil that low, but in the event of a low oil level measurement, they might want to know how dangerous the situation really is (and a more specific"absolute low" level marking might make that more clear than a "conservative low" level marking).

Case in point. We're all speculating here on forum posts, while wunderladen leaves us hanging and questioning our own sanity here

All of this 9 page thread could have been solved if they spent 10 minutes writing a few sentences on "why" and "how".

 

[TypeRD]

Case in point. We're all speculating here on forum posts, while wunderladen leaves us hanging and questioning our own sanity here

Right! I would rather have a conservative low mark (OEM) versus a seemingly random low mark. Is it dangerously low at that point? No one knows. Even Wunderladen’s explanation was VERY wishy washy. As such I don’t trust it, despite the fact I check my oil regularly and would never let it get that low. That’s besides the point! Why is this so difficult?

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