Anyone Want to Share Data Logs w/Kuro Turbo?

[jtlctr]

Been tinkering with electronics since I was 8 and working on cars since I was 11. Was in IT for ten years. I work on jet engines for a living now doing NDT. I love working on cars.

We just started talking about it after visiting there. Our children are getting older now. I liked his shop, he seems happy doing it.

If I were you, I’d be looking to upgrade my job to DT of jet engines. Don’t you want to throw frozen chickens into turbines spinning at 10k rpm?!

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[Websitesdown]

If I were you, I’d be looking to upgrade my job to DT of jet engines. Don’t you want to throw frozen chickens into turbines spinning at 10k rpm?!

We do that as well

 

[Websitesdown]

If I were you, I’d be looking to upgrade my job to DT of jet engines. Don’t you want to throw frozen chickens into turbines spinning at 10k rpm?!

Hps runs at 20k rpm which is bad ass.

 

[D-RobIMW]

Interesting thread; admittedly I don't check forums much these days, but given I'm mentioned quite a bit in this conversation, I suppose I will compile some information to support why I make the recommendation for fuel system upgrade with any turbo upgrade so the information is able to be referenced in the future for those on the fence.

 

[jmheath357]

Interesting thread; admittedly I don't check forums much these days, but given I'm mentioned quite a bit in this conversation, I suppose I will compile some information to support why I make the recommendation for fuel system upgrade with any turbo upgrade so the information is able to be referenced in the future for those on the fence.

Thanks Derek! I'm sure a lot of people will find the information interesting and helpful. I was trying to avoid bothering tuners as I know you guys are busy but if you have some logs saved and would like to share that would be awesome. Appreciate it!

Also, if anyone else is still willing to share some data logs with the Kuro, I'd love to see it. There's no such thing as too much data.

 

[D-RobIMW]

Hello,

Now that I've had a chance to decompress a little from the work week, I'll try to keep this relatively short and direct to the point.

When you do this job long enough, you start to see trends emerge. What may seem like a perfectly suitable recommendation early on can slowly reveal itself to be less than ideal as more data becomes available across a much larger pool of cars.

At this point, I can no longer in good conscience recommend upgrading the turbocharger on a K20C1/C8 without upgrading the high pressure fuel pump at the bare minimum. The reasoning is multi-pronged, but there are a few key areas worth explaining.

The HPFP itself is the biggest concern on most of these cars. Even completely stock cars with nothing more than a tune can tax the stock pump's ability to maintain reasonable fuel pressure at high load.

The pump is more efficient at a lower target pressure, like most fuel pumps, but lowering fuel pressure creates another problem: injector duration has to increase to deliver the same volume of fuel, because you've effectively made the injector smaller.

With a DI engine, you only have a finite window during the combustion cycle to inject that fuel. Unlike a port injected engine, you can't simply keep the injector spraying longer indefinitely. To oversimplify it, roughly 40% "injector duty" at high engine speed tends to be about the practical limit on these before injection-window-related misfire becomes a significant concern.

Then you have environmental conditions to consider. Cold charge air temperatures, particularly for those of us who experience all four of Mother Nature's seasons, can increase fuel demand pretty significantly. Something that looks fine, but maxed out, on a warm day in the dyno room can quickly turn into fuel pressure drop and misfire when ambient temperatures plunge a few weeks later out in the real world.

Fuel quality and knock resistance add another variable that people don't always consider.

Higher quality 93 octane versus ACN91, for example, can change the amount of fuel the engine ultimately requires. If the engine is knock-prone for any reason, whether from lower octane fuel, high exhaust pressure, elevated operating temperatures, etc, a richer lambda target is often one of the tools available to add another layer of safety. This isn't anything unusual, OEMs have used the same basic strategy for many years.

With a good-flowing combination and good, knock-resistant fuel, you can generally target a slightly leaner mixture while also allowing the engine to tolerate more boost and ignition advance. That lets you extract considerably more of the power the combination is actually capable of producing.

If the setup is restricted in flow or running on lower octane fuel, you're disadvantaged from several directions at once. The fuel system is being taxed harder, boost targets have to come down, and the additional 3-4 degrees of ignition advance you may have been able to run on the better combination simply isn't available. You can very quickly end up with a larger turbo that makes little to no additional power while also sacrificing low-end and midrange response and torque.

This is why upgrading the HPFP makes such a significant difference.

A pump that can comfortably maintain pressure, while also allowing us to run slightly higher pressure at high engine speed, effectively increases the size of the injector and gives us considerably more room to work with. It removes most of the concern surrounding fuel pressure drop and injection-window-related misfire while giving the setup enough headroom to remain consistent across a much wider range of conditions.

As a side note, the pump that gives the absolute least amount of fucks about maintaining elevated operational pressure at any RPM is currently the Full-Race/Nostrum unit.

Put that pump on the engine, give it good fuel, and it's really the only fueling upgrade you need to operate one of these setups up to the reasonable knock limit of pump gas on a stock motor.

I hope this helps explain the reasoning a little better. I don't sell parts, and I have nothing to gain from anyone buying anything. My only interest is having customers with cars that perform better and more consistently across a wide range of operating conditions.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not here often, but I am always, always happy to consult via e-mail (found on the bottom of every page of my website, or via the "contact / map" page).

 

[jmheath357]

Hello,

Now that I've had a chance to decompress a little from the work week, I'll try to keep this relatively short and direct to the point.

When you do this job long enough, you start to see trends emerge. What may seem like a perfectly suitable recommendation early on can slowly reveal itself to be less than ideal as more data becomes available across a much larger pool of cars.

At this point, I can no longer in good conscience recommend upgrading the turbocharger on a K20C1/C8 without upgrading the high pressure fuel pump at the bare minimum. The reasoning is multi-pronged, but there are a few key areas worth explaining.

The HPFP itself is the biggest concern on most of these cars. Even completely stock cars with nothing more than a tune can tax the stock pump's ability to maintain reasonable fuel pressure at high load.

The pump is more efficient at a lower target pressure, like most fuel pumps, but lowering fuel pressure creates another problem: injector duration has to increase to deliver the same volume of fuel, because you've effectively made the injector smaller.

With a DI engine, you only have a finite window during the combustion cycle to inject that fuel. Unlike a port injected engine, you can't simply keep the injector spraying longer indefinitely. To oversimplify it, roughly 40% "injector duty" at high engine speed tends to be about the practical limit on these before injection-window-related misfire becomes a significant concern.

Then you have environmental conditions to consider. Cold charge air temperatures, particularly for those of us who experience all four of Mother Nature's seasons, can increase fuel demand pretty significantly. Something that looks fine, but maxed out, on a warm day in the dyno room can quickly turn into fuel pressure drop and misfire when ambient temperatures plunge a few weeks later out in the real world.

Fuel quality and knock resistance add another variable that people don't always consider.

Higher quality 93 octane versus ACN91, for example, can change the amount of fuel the engine ultimately requires. If the engine is knock-prone for any reason, whether from lower octane fuel, high exhaust pressure, elevated operating temperatures, etc, a richer lambda target is often one of the tools available to add another layer of safety. This isn't anything unusual, OEMs have used the same basic strategy for many years.

With a good-flowing combination and good, knock-resistant fuel, you can generally target a slightly leaner mixture while also allowing the engine to tolerate more boost and ignition advance. That lets you extract considerably more of the power the combination is actually capable of producing.

If the setup is restricted in flow or running on lower octane fuel, you're disadvantaged from several directions at once. The fuel system is being taxed harder, boost targets have to come down, and the additional 3-4 degrees of ignition advance you may have been able to run on the better combination simply isn't available. You can very quickly end up with a larger turbo that makes little to no additional power while also sacrificing low-end and midrange response and torque.

This is why upgrading the HPFP makes such a significant difference.

A pump that can comfortably maintain pressure, while also allowing us to run slightly higher pressure at high engine speed, effectively increases the size of the injector and gives us considerably more room to work with. It removes most of the concern surrounding fuel pressure drop and injection-window-related misfire while giving the setup enough headroom to remain consistent across a much wider range of conditions.

As a side note, the pump that gives the absolute least amount of fucks about maintaining elevated operational pressure at any RPM is currently the Full-Race/Nostrum unit.

Put that pump on the engine, give it good fuel, and it's really the only fueling upgrade you need to operate one of these setups up to the reasonable knock limit of pump gas on a stock motor.

I hope this helps explain the reasoning a little better. I don't sell parts, and I have nothing to gain from anyone buying anything. My only interest is having customers with cars that perform better and more consistently across a wide range of operating conditions.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not here often, but I am always, always happy to consult via e-mail (found on the bottom of every page of my website, or via the "contact / map" page).

Awesome and thorough explanation as usual. This is why I consider you to be the best in the business and I appreciate you taking the time to explain things in a little more detail. I personally like the most detailed and technical explanations possible as I enjoy learning the real ins and outs of things as is my nature as a motorsports enthusiast and avionics technician.

Also, on an unrelated note. Glad to see I was right about the fuel injector duty cycle. There was a guy on one of the Type R Facebook groups talking about size of injectors needed for a certain HP goal and that he was at 45% duty cycle on his and only the HPFP was the limiter and not the injectors. I tried to tell him that he was maxed out on the injector but he thought they would have to be at like 90% before being maxed. I was like yeah, that's not how DI works and told him he should be at about 40% or lower to keep things in check. Not sure if he took that to heart as he never responded back. Oh well, not my car. lol

 

[jtlctr]

Hello,

Now that I've had a chance to decompress a little from the work week, I'll try to keep this relatively short and direct to the point.

When you do this job long enough, you start to see trends emerge. What may seem like a perfectly suitable recommendation early on can slowly reveal itself to be less than ideal as more data becomes available across a much larger pool of cars.

At this point, I can no longer in good conscience recommend upgrading the turbocharger on a K20C1/C8 without upgrading the high pressure fuel pump at the bare minimum. The reasoning is multi-pronged, but there are a few key areas worth explaining.

The HPFP itself is the biggest concern on most of these cars. Even completely stock cars with nothing more than a tune can tax the stock pump's ability to maintain reasonable fuel pressure at high load.

The pump is more efficient at a lower target pressure, like most fuel pumps, but lowering fuel pressure creates another problem: injector duration has to increase to deliver the same volume of fuel, because you've effectively made the injector smaller.

With a DI engine, you only have a finite window during the combustion cycle to inject that fuel. Unlike a port injected engine, you can't simply keep the injector spraying longer indefinitely. To oversimplify it, roughly 40% "injector duty" at high engine speed tends to be about the practical limit on these before injection-window-related misfire becomes a significant concern.

Then you have environmental conditions to consider. Cold charge air temperatures, particularly for those of us who experience all four of Mother Nature's seasons, can increase fuel demand pretty significantly. Something that looks fine, but maxed out, on a warm day in the dyno room can quickly turn into fuel pressure drop and misfire when ambient temperatures plunge a few weeks later out in the real world.

Fuel quality and knock resistance add another variable that people don't always consider.

Higher quality 93 octane versus ACN91, for example, can change the amount of fuel the engine ultimately requires. If the engine is knock-prone for any reason, whether from lower octane fuel, high exhaust pressure, elevated operating temperatures, etc, a richer lambda target is often one of the tools available to add another layer of safety. This isn't anything unusual, OEMs have used the same basic strategy for many years.

With a good-flowing combination and good, knock-resistant fuel, you can generally target a slightly leaner mixture while also allowing the engine to tolerate more boost and ignition advance. That lets you extract considerably more of the power the combination is actually capable of producing.

If the setup is restricted in flow or running on lower octane fuel, you're disadvantaged from several directions at once. The fuel system is being taxed harder, boost targets have to come down, and the additional 3-4 degrees of ignition advance you may have been able to run on the better combination simply isn't available. You can very quickly end up with a larger turbo that makes little to no additional power while also sacrificing low-end and midrange response and torque.

This is why upgrading the HPFP makes such a significant difference.

A pump that can comfortably maintain pressure, while also allowing us to run slightly higher pressure at high engine speed, effectively increases the size of the injector and gives us considerably more room to work with. It removes most of the concern surrounding fuel pressure drop and injection-window-related misfire while giving the setup enough headroom to remain consistent across a much wider range of conditions.

As a side note, the pump that gives the absolute least amount of fucks about maintaining elevated operational pressure at any RPM is currently the Full-Race/Nostrum unit.

Put that pump on the engine, give it good fuel, and it's really the only fueling upgrade you need to operate one of these setups up to the reasonable knock limit of pump gas on a stock motor.

I hope this helps explain the reasoning a little better. I don't sell parts, and I have nothing to gain from anyone buying anything. My only interest is having customers with cars that perform better and more consistently across a wide range of operating conditions.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not here often, but I am always, always happy to consult via e-mail (found on the bottom of every page of my website, or via the "contact / map" page).

Nobody could ask for a better explanation! Thanks for taking the time to educate us.

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