How to Heel-Toe with big feet

[Cueyo]

Been driving stick for a month now and I've gotten good enough downshifting myself to where I'm encountering issues with my method.

My current process for slowing down is to first clutch in, then shift down a gear, apply throttle, then brake and "catch" the revs at the right point. The issue with this is that sometimes it's just too slow and I find myself not getting down to the right gear in time (forcing me to clutch in and go to neutral) - though I usually only clutch out early in 3rd gear as opposed to 2nd.

I've tried heel toeing once and it felt horrible, my feet just don't land in the right spots to comfortably heel toe. Is there any way to remedy this before I try the throttle pedal spacers from acuity? My feet are 12s, so not massive, but also not the average.

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[TchnoZ33]

For heel-toe downshifts, it’s usually clutch in, brake with simultaneously changing to a lower gear, rev, release clutch at optimal point.

Very few people ever truly heel toe especially for daily driving. Heel toe requires you to pivot your foot to be on the brake and the accelerator at the same time. Foot pivot for regular driving is annoying. What most people will do is straddle the brake pedal and accelerator with their foot; half your foot on the brake and the lateral portion of your foot on the accelerator for the rev match portion.

My feet are much too narrow for the original spacing so I have to get the acuity spacer; made all the difference in the world.

 

[Zpeedster M]

Youtube is your friend for car wash, shiftin etc etc

 

[coolnick]

I guess you don't have a Type R? If so you can turn on rev match.

As far as heel-toe goes there are a few different ways to do it, but the traditional way is to use the ball of your foot centered on the brake pedal and swing your heel out as far as it needs to go to blip the throttle. The first few times you try it you will likely feel like you are going to fly out the windshield. I find that I can only do it properly when I am threshold braking and without lots of practice it always feels herky jerky. So I bought a car that has rev match and now I don't have to think about it haha.

Watch some of those crazy videos with the heel-toe masters and then if you really want to break your brain watch the Misha videos where he is also left foot braking.

 

[Cueyo]

Youtube is your friend for car wash, shiftin etc etc

I was watching some heel toe videos earlier and it's so much more difficult for me in the type R. I can't tell if it's the pedals or my foot mobility

 

[Cueyo]

I guess you don't have a Type R? If so you can turn on rev match.

As far as heel-toe goes there are a few different ways to do it, but the traditional way is to use the ball of your foot centered on the brake pedal and swing your heel out as far as it needs to go to blip the throttle. The first few times you try it you will likely feel like you are going to fly out the windshield. I find that I can only do it properly when I am threshold braking and without lots of practice it always feels herky jerky. So I bought a car that has rev match and now I don't have to think about it haha.

Watch some of those crazy videos with the heel-toe masters and then if you really want to break your brain watch the Misha videos where he is also left foot braking.

I turned off the auto rev match on day 5 of owning the CTR since it felt like cheating to me. Super nice feature, but I drive my car like I'm playing a game, so I like to have as many controllable inputs as possible.

Those heel toe videos from autocross racers is why I'm trying to learn it. Having the ability to shift almost like an automatic is something I'd love to be able to do.

I think I will try just sitting in the car and practicing the motions before turning it on, maybe my foot needs to get used to the position.

 

[coolnick]

It's way easier on track where you have longer periods of threshold braking, but in the end your car already does it better than you will be able to in the near-term and it allows you to focus on more important things.

 

[Cueyo]

It's way easier on track where you have longer periods of threshold braking, but in the end your car already does it better than you will be able to in the near-term and it allows you to focus on more important things.

Then is there a way to manually downshift that doesn't involve heel-toeing that's faster? There's just so many steps on downshifting that it makes it unreliable in sticky situations. I want to say it's a practice thing if I don't go down the heel toe rabbit hole

 

[coolnick]

No, the option is what you described before where you brake a little, lift off the brake to blip the throttle, then back on the brakes. This leads to instability and additional weight transfer. Mastering heel-toe was a necessity at one time and those that are good at it became good at it due to necessity. I would stop thinking about it as if it were a badge of honor and instead know that one of the perks of owning these cars is that the rev match system works really well.

 

[Cueyo]

No, the option is what you described before where you brake a little, lift off the brake to blip the throttle, then back on the brakes. This leads to instability and additional weight transfer. Mastering heel-toe was a necessity at one time and those that are good at it became good at it due to necessity. I would stop thinking about it as if it were a badge of honor and instead know that one of the perks of owning these cars is that the rev match system works really well.

My problem with the rev match system isn't actually the rev matching, it's the rev hold on upshifts. The downshifting part is what it was intended for, but I guess they also thought upshifting needed a hand.

Don't really think it's a badge of honor, more that I feel more connected to the car when I downshift. Also it's super rewarding to do myself , never a bad thing to have an extra skill!

 

[zumbooruk]

I have duck feet, i.e. my toes cannot point in, it is even difficult to keep them parallel...

since I cannot point my toe inward (towards the brake pedal) for "real" heel toe, I do the "fake" heel toe, where I brake with the big toe side of my foot, and blip the accelerator with the pinky toe side of my foot.

my heel rests to the left of the brake pedal, and I pivot on the heel to either reach the accelerator or the brake, or both ("fake" heel toe)

been driving a manual exclusively for the last 40 years. always did my "fake" heel toe on every downshift where I have to brake, i.e. brake and blip the accelerator. on downshifts where I do not have to brake, I still blip the accelerator.

however, for the FL5, I had to get the Acuity throttle pedal relocator, tried all position and found that position "C" was perfect for me.

I turned off the rev match as soon as I could comfortably heel toe. turned off all the other auto stuff. yet it still seems to rev hang on upshifts (my 07 FA5 without auto rev match did the same...), so I just lift off the accelerator bit earlier and clutch a bit longer

I got a manual car so I can manually control it...

one thing that just occurred to me. you can try doing the downshift in serial (brake to reach desired speed, then blip accelerator and downshift) instead of in parallel (brake and blip accelerator at the same time), slower, but at least you will be able to practice the concept.

 

[Cueyo]

I have duck feet, i.e. my toes cannot point in, it is even difficult to keep them parallel...

since I cannot point my toe inward (towards the brake pedal) for "real" heel toe, I do the "fake" heel toe, where I brake with the big toe side of my foot, and blip the accelerator with the pinky toe side of my foot.

my heel rests to the left of the brake pedal, and I pivot on the heel to either reach the accelerator or the brake, or both ("fake" heel toe)

been driving a manual exclusively for the last 40 years. always did my "fake" heel toe on every downshift where I have to brake, i.e. brake and blip the accelerator. on downshifts where I do not have to brake, I still blip the accelerator.

however, for the FL5, I had to get the Acuity throttle pedal relocator, tried all position and found that position "C" was perfect for me.

I turned off the rev match as soon as I could comfortably heel toe. turned off all the other auto stuff. yet it still seems to rev hang on upshifts (my 07 FA5 without auto rev match did the same...), so I just lift off the accelerator bit earlier and clutch a bit longer

I got a manual car so I can manually control it...

one thing that just occurred to me. you can try doing the downshift in serial (brake to reach desired speed, then blip accelerator and downshift) instead of in parallel (brake and blip accelerator at the same time), slower, but at least you will be able to practice the concept.

As a recovering duck footer, this post is incredibly helpful, I'll try the traditional heel toeing then I'll try what you do. If not then it's spacer time.

I got a manual car so I can manually control it...

Exact reason I wanted a manual, to have precise control over every aspect of the car that I could.

 

[TchnoZ33]

What people don’t tell you is how long it actually takes to get good at heel toe. I agree with “fake” heel toe, that’s pretty much how I exclusively do it. Real heel toe with foot pivot is more for threshold breaking and much too impractical for daily driving.

Regardless, to be honest, it took me a good year to be very proficient at heel toe downshifting (10 years ago). I would practice it on every stop sign and every red light. When I say “proficient,” I mean being able to do it consistently and smoothly in all gears 99% of the time. It’s a lot of practice but I made a game out of it. Now….its the only way I brake lol.

 

[optronix]

Heel-toe is so excessively overrated now that rev-match is a thing. There's nothing "cheating" about it- it is 100% an "engagement" thing that people who have already gotten good at it are the only ones who care.

There are exceedingly rare opportunities to heel-toe in autocross. Downshifting in general is rare, and when it would be required there just isn't enough time to be fucking around with a heel-toe unless you're expert level.

Especially when rev match is a thing.

Learning to drive on a race track, the last thing you need to be fucking around with is trying to nail your heel-toe.

Especially when... you get the point. Hopefully.

If anything is "cheating", it's dual-clutch transmissions, or even the ZF that's in almost everything else that doesn't have a dual-clutch that would be worth taking on track. But you can't deny that it's arguably "more fun" on a race track because you just focus on your line and car control. It's not even a question that it's faster.

I've given up trying to heel-toe, I've got size 12s and found it annoying and just saw no point in it. When/if I buy a gated F430 maybe I'll revisit it, but rev-match is a dream, people need to stop taking it for granted.

 

[ItsMeNickG]

I used to heel toe in my 10th gen Si on the track, and it was much easier with the Acuity throttle pedal spacer that I had. But, since owning the FL5 I’ve found it much more convenient to just use its rev match system. Less thinking on focusing on perfecting the heel toe technique and more focused on driving/braking/lines. I don’t think I can do better than the car anyways lol.

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