Stock Front Camber and tire wear on track

[keller]

plus close attention to tire temps, i am disappointed with shoulder wear. i expected better!

What's your hot tire pressure on the fronts and rears? You can alleviate the excessive shoulder wear on the fronts by overinflating your rears a bit.

Yes, hardrace is a good choice. I personally use whiteline on my FK8. I would say they are a perfect upgrade to the stock suspension. Cons of a higher static camber is a slightly worse traction/braking and a lighter steering wheel feel.

a seriously modded fk8 owner told me "don't change the ball joints because they are not easy to remove without damage." that scares me, but i think this group has better fl5 evidence.

Not sure why he told you that. It is a lot of work and of moderate difficulty, but I can't see how you could damage anything. The FK2, FK8 and FL5 front suspension is basically the same.

Maybe he mentioned the other lower ball joint (the one that connects to the LCA), which indeed seems like a pain to remove? People replace that one to adjust the roll center, not to increase front camber.

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[mmdct]

Optimum camber does vary on the tyre - I'd call myself a track veteran with the fastest posted FL5 times on the major race tracks in my state. The Log R calls me an S+ driver if its anything to go by. The below has been my personal experience on the FL5 so far - running RE71RS 275/35R18 on TE37SL 18x9.5 +45 on stock suspension.

I ran -1.8 front on the first time I went out (which was stock just with the pins removed like yours) and found it was definitely not enough - with a lot of feathering on the outside shoulders.

I installed the hardrace lower ball joint for FK8 which works perfectly on the FL5, set to the middle sitting, to achieve -2.7 and found the tyre wear much improved on the 2nd time out. It could have done with a touch more camber by maxing out the ball joint setting and bringing the strut tops back out however I believe this would have the effect of pushing the wheel outwards and minimizing the tyre to fender clearance. The other option is to go coilovers with adjustable strut tops to give you greater range of adjustment. Or the balade FK8 camber plates which will work however it would introduce some NVH as all pillow ball tops tend to do - so at that point you might as well have gone coilovers. It took me around an hour a corner to install the ball joints being my first time - it could be done in less.

I'll be out on Spoon springs next and will see how the current -2.7 goes on stiffer spring rates. I do know for a fact that A052's require more negative camber to work well due to the softer carcase. And since my car is a daily driver I am running a compromised set up intended to be a little more track biased than street - if it was a track only car I'd max the ball joint setting to -3.6 and call it a day

tezza... thank you for your post, very encouraging. 1-hour install per corner sounds great and that's where i need help.

does the long end of the ball joint pressure fit into the the lower control arm? if so, doesn't removing the old joint "loosen" the fitting for the new joint?

do you have installation instructions for these ball joints? i would very likely not install them myself but i want to see what's required so i understand the process.

btw... great LogR score! my best is an "A." my biggest weaknesses are corner entry and overall g. i love the feedback.

please advise on my install questions... thank you in advance

 

[mmdct]

What's your hot tire pressure on the fronts and rears? You can alleviate the excessive shoulder wear on the fronts by overinflating your rears a bit.

Yes, hardrace is a good choice. I personally use whiteline on my FK8. I would say they are a perfect upgrade to the stock suspension. Cons of a higher static camber is a slightly worse traction/braking and a lighter steering wheel feel.



Not sure why he told you that. It is a lot of work and of moderate difficulty, but I can't see how you could damage anything. The FK2, FK8 and FL5 front suspension is basically the same.

Maybe he mentioned the other lower ball joint (the one that connects to the LCA), which indeed seems like a pain to remove? People replace that one to adjust the roll center, not to increase front camber.

my hot temps for 80 degree ambient and 130 degree track were 42 front and 36 rear. i'll boost the rears in my next event.

i asked tezza about his install. i can't visualize which ball joint is being replaced. the replacement joints appear to pressure fit and my thought is removing the original joint will "loosen" the new joint fit.

also, i can't find install instructions anywhere. do you have some?

i need more cow-bell... er, camber!

 

[keller]

my hot temps for 80 degree ambient and 130 degree track were 42 front and 36 rear. i'll boost the rears in my next event.

i asked tezza about his install. i can't visualize which ball joint is being replaced. the replacement joints appear to pressure fit and my thought is removing the original joint will "loosen" the new joint fit.

also, i can't find install instructions anywhere. do you have some?

i need more cow-bell... er, camber!

Here's whiteline's instructions: http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/install_guides/Z6059.pdf

Honestly these instructions were insufficient, but they give you a nice idea. "Loosen the rotor" took me 2h in one corner because I had never done that before. Took me 30s in the other side tho...

It's not an usual ball joint that is pressure fit and needs a hammer to the knuckle to remove. There's a Torx bolt (see 1st picture) that locks the ball stud into the damper fork.

With these tire pressures it's expected some shoulder wear, even though I assume you are overinflating exacty to protect your tires. It makes the car more stable, which requires a lot of sustained steering input to rotate. In other words, you are overdoing your fronts. Honda recommends higher tire pressure on the fronts because that's the right thing for wet surfaces and road driving (ie match the weight distribution). Usually on fwds we track with a squared setup or 2-5psi more on the rears than in the fronts. If you decide to change your tire pressure settings, do it in small steps and use a chalk. The behavior of the car will change quite a bit.

There's a number of people that track their fk8s with an inverse staggered setup. The most common is 295 on the fronts and 245 on the rears. It's akin to overinflating the rears to make the car rotate easier.

 

[BigBird]

this conversation has gotten very technical but i think the takeaway is different ball joints will provide more camber with hardrace as the better choice.

i definitely need more camber! i pulled the pins and had the toe aligned after my first track day. five track days later with rotations front to rear and side-to-side after every event, plus close attention to tire temps, i am disappointed with shoulder wear. i expected better!

SO, please confirm that hardrace is a good choice for a one-and-done solution without anything else like lowering springs and coilovers. i am not looking for optimum , just something that will reduce shoulder wear, increase camber, and keep the car safe and stable.

i am especially interested in confirmation that a hardrace install works (i think that was stated above) because a seriously modded fk8 owner told me "don't change the ball joints because they are not easy to remove without damage." that scares me, but i think this group has better fl5 evidence.

please confirm. thank you

Here's whiteline's instructions: http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/install_guides/Z6059.pdf

Honestly these instructions were insufficient, but they give you a nice idea. "Loosen the rotor" took me 2h in one corner because I had never done that before. Took me 30s in the other side tho...

It's not an usual ball joint that is pressure fit and needs a hammer to the knuckle to remove. There's a Torx bolt (see 1st picture) that locks the ball stud into the damper fork.

With these tire pressures it's expected some shoulder wear, even though I assume you are overinflating exacty to protect your tires. It makes the car more stable, which requires a lot of sustained steering input to rotate. In other words, you are overdoing your fronts. Honda recommends higher tire pressure on the fronts because that's the right thing for wet surfaces and road driving (ie match the weight distribution). Usually on fwds we track with a squared setup or 2-5psi more on the rears than in the fronts. If you decide to change your tire pressure settings, do it in small steps and use a chalk. The behavior of the car will change quite a bit.

There's a number of people that track their fk8s with an inverse staggered setup. The most common is 295 on the fronts and 245 on the rears. It's akin to overinflating the rears to make the car rotate easier.

FL5s are shown to have a bit more rotation than the FK8s from the factory

 

[keller]

FL5s are shown to have a bit more rotation than the FK8s from the factory

Yes, I have read that too, but that probably isn't happening with 42/36 psi. I use 30/60 on my race car, it rotates like a monster (don't do it on a CTR!).

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

tezza... thank you for your post, very encouraging. 1-hour install per corner sounds great and that's where i need help.

does the long end of the ball joint pressure fit into the the lower control arm? if so, doesn't removing the old joint "loosen" the fitting for the new joint?

do you have installation instructions for these ball joints? i would very likely not install them myself but i want to see what's required so i understand the process.

btw... great LogR score! my best is an "A." my biggest weaknesses are corner entry and overall g. i love the feedback.

please advise on my install questions... thank you in advance

Like keller has mentioned, the stud of the ball joint is pinched by the control arm by a torx bolt. Once the torx bolt is undone it will slip out with relative ease.

The more challenging part is getting your head around how the whole dual axis assembly fits and how each part works and overlaps each other. I have to admit - I'm a seasoned mechanic with a lot of experience and even I was there for a good 15 minutes trying to work out how I was going to tackle the job, at some points I was thinking I was in over my head!

Firstly, the brake rotor must be removed. So that means removing the brake caliper too. You can do this without disconnecting the brake lines, just undo all the brackets that hold the brake lines and feed the caliper forward and place it on a box of some kind (as the lines are in such a way that you wont be able to place it on the ground). The philips head counter sunk bolt that secures the brake rotor to the hub can be challenging - as the brake rotor has moved in relation to the hub and is binding on the countersunk head from the forces applied during braking, this is evident when you observe the alignment of the brake rotor hub in relation to the wheel studs - the best way to tackle this is to rotate the brake rotor in the opposite direction of the braking force to recentralise their relationship. You do this by putting the wheel nuts back on the studs (to protect the studs) and a large screw driver inserted into the brake rotor fins, and elbow grease lol... Once you've done this you'll find that the countersunk bolt much easier to remove. MANY are stripping these philips heads and wind up having to drill it out (which isn't all that difficult tbh just an inconvenience) Alternatively, you may use the brake caliper as leverage (so perhaps best to tackle this countersunk bolt before you remove the caliper) but make sure you wrap it with a thick rag to protect the red paint.

Once the backing plate is moved out of the way (you won't be able to completely remove it as the hub face is too big) the rest is relatively straight forward - undo the 19mm bolts holding the ball joint to the knuckle, undo the two bolts (one long 17mm head bolt, the other a shorter 14mm head) holding the lower knuckle to the upper fork, then undo the torx bolt pinching the ball joint, and push the control arm down clear of the ball joint stud (best to undo the 12mm ride height sensor bracket bolt to allow full articulation of the control arm without over extending the height sensor). You should then be able to remove the factory ball joint with relative ease.
NB: Make sure you have a good quality torx head 3/8" socket set as this torx bolt is damn tight. Don't use an impact wrench here.

The ball joint 19mm bolts are 145NM, the Torx bolt is 83NM, the brake caliper bolts are 145NM. Remember you're working with a heap of cast aluminium parts, so avoid using the impact wrench. You'll be surprised at how loose all these bolts feel when you undo them...
Also, you can 100% do this job successfully without damaging anything. Just requires patience, proper tools for the job, and care. Whoever said it can't be done without damage is not being careful and patient enough!
Hopefully this helps you. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[mmdct]

Like keller has mentioned, the stud of the ball joint is pinched by the control arm by a torx bolt. Once the torx bolt is undone it will slip out with relative ease.

The more challenging part is getting your head around how the whole dual axis assembly fits and how each part works and overlaps each other. I have to admit - I'm a seasoned mechanic with a lot of experience and even I was there for a good 15 minutes trying to work out how I was going to tackle the job, at some points I was thinking I was in over my head!

Firstly, the brake rotor must be removed. So that means removing the brake caliper too. You can do this without disconnecting the brake lines, just undo all the brackets that hold the brake lines and feed the caliper forward and place it on a box of some kind (as the lines are in such a way that you wont be able to place it on the ground). The philips head counter sunk bolt that secures the brake rotor to the hub can be challenging - as the brake rotor has moved in relation to the hub and is binding on the countersunk head from the forces applied during braking, this is evident when you observe the alignment of the brake rotor hub in relation to the wheel studs - the best way to tackle this is to rotate the brake rotor in the opposite direction of the braking force to recentralise their relationship. You do this by putting the wheel nuts back on the studs (to protect the studs) and a large screw driver inserted into the brake rotor fins, and elbow grease lol... Once you've done this you'll find that the countersunk bolt much easier to remove. MANY are stripping these philips heads and wind up having to drill it out (which isn't all that difficult tbh just an inconvenience) Alternatively, you may use the brake caliper as leverage (so perhaps best to tackle this countersunk bolt before you remove the caliper) but make sure you wrap it with a thick rag to protect the red paint.

Once the backing plate is moved out of the way (you won't be able to completely remove it as the hub face is too big) the rest is relatively straight forward - undo the 19mm bolts holding the ball joint to the knuckle, undo the two bolts (one long 17mm head bolt, the other a shorter 14mm head) holding the lower knuckle to the upper fork, then undo the torx bolt pinching the ball joint, and push the control arm down clear of the ball joint stud (best to undo the 12mm ride height sensor bracket bolt to allow full articulation of the control arm without over extending the height sensor). You should then be able to remove the factory ball joint with relative ease.
NB: Make sure you have a good quality torx head 3/8" socket set as this torx bolt is damn tight. Don't use an impact wrench here.

The ball joint 19mm bolts are 145NM, the Torx bolt is 83NM, the brake caliper bolts are 145NM. Remember you're working with a heap of cast aluminium parts, so avoid using the impact wrench. You'll be surprised at how loose all these bolts feel when you undo them...
Also, you can 100% do this job successfully without damaging anything. Just requires patience, proper tools for the job, and care. Whoever said it can't be done without damage is not being careful and patient enough!
Hopefully this helps you. Let me know if you have any questions.

tezza... very nice instructions, thank you..

- did you have to remove the brake pads when you removed the rotor?
- did you use an impact driver on the rotor retaining screw?

interestingly, the whiteline instructions don't remove the rotor. they call for a lot of loosening including the "inner bushing" which you don't mention. thoughts?

 

[mmdct]

tezza... very nice instructions, thank you..

- did you have to remove the brake pads when you removed the rotor?
- did you use an impact driver on the rotor retaining screw?

interestingly, the whiteline instructions don't remove the rotor. they call for a lot of loosening including the "inner bushing" which you don't mention. thoughts?

clarification...
- did you have to remove the brake pads when you removed the caliper?

 

[BigBird]

clarification...
- did you have to remove the brake pads when you removed the caliper?

You usually don't.

 

[keller]

best to undo the 12mm ride height sensor bracket bolt to allow full articulation of the control arm without over extending the height sensor

Now I feel stupid. Gotta check if my ride height sensor is measuring fine. Very nice instructions indeed. I did pretty much as you described once I realized the whiteline instructions were insufficient. Did you use loctite when reassembling?

I was following these instructions, but didn't open the brake line. Interesting that you posted a doc asking for 145Nm on the ball joint bolts. We couldn't find this info on the fk8 documentation. I'll need to tighten them up.

Can you share where you found that service manual page? On civicx we have a huge dump of the 10th gen.

MANY are stripping these philips heads and wind up having to drill it out

Yeah, I had to dremel the first screw out. Then I learned to hammer it once or twice and the other side screw came loose instantly.

tezza... very nice instructions, thank you..

- did you have to remove the brake pads when you removed the rotor?
- did you use an impact driver on the rotor retaining screw?

interestingly, the whiteline instructions don't remove the rotor. they call for a lot of loosening including the "inner bushing" which you don't mention. thoughts?

@tezzasaurusrex instructions are solid. Removing the rotor allows you to rotate the dust shield and have a clear view of the lower ball joint. I guess it's only important if you are working on the floor on jack stands. I didn't loose the inner bushings as well, you can easily push the LCA down. Yes, you need to remove the brake pads. Just remember which is inside and outside for reassembling.

The most difficult part for me was getting the two parts of the damper fork correctly in place again. They have to be perfectly aligned so you can screw the 17 and 14mm bolts back in.

Also, you need to have both front wheels in the air so you can easily rotate the hub to facilitate using the breaker bar and torque wrench. Most of those bolts require a lot of torque.

 

[balucipher]

I ran the Kumho V730 tires this weekend at VIR

excellent tire for camber limited cars, good grip, wears like iron

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

tezza... very nice instructions, thank you..

- did you have to remove the brake pads when you removed the rotor?
- did you use an impact driver on the rotor retaining screw?

interestingly, the whiteline instructions don't remove the rotor. they call for a lot of loosening including the "inner bushing" which you don't mention. thoughts?

Brake pads stayed in situ - my car only had around 5000km though. So if your rotors have worn down and developed a lip you might need to pry the pistons back a bit. YMMV.

You can use an impact driver on the philips head bolt. Giving it a good couple of taps with a hammer also helps as @keller mentioned.

The most difficult part for me was getting the two parts of the damper fork correctly in place again. They have to be perfectly aligned so you can screw the 17 and 14mm bolts back in.

Yes this was tricky for me as well - and you absolutely dont want to be forcing anything together as the aluminium casting is very weak. Patience is key for sure!

 

[keller]

The thing I dont like about the whiteline design is that it doesn't have a recessed home for the flip chip - rather it is secured by pins and by the friction between the mounting surfaces - so I prefered the hardrace design as it appears to offer a greater level of strength and security with the recess.

I've just found old pictures of the lower ball joints hardrace used to sell for the fk8. They used the holes and pins design. I can't believe they changed their design for cost reasons. Now I'm not exactly comfortable with this choice. They are even missing a pin in these pictures...

https://www.kamispeed.com/products/...amber-adjusters-2017-honda-civic-type-r-q0094

https://www.maperformance.com/produ...juster-2017-2019-honda-civic-type-r-fk8-q0094

Lol the fk8 service manual explicitly says to never even loosen the bolts of the ball joint.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

The most difficult part for me was getting the two parts of the damper fork correctly in place again. They have to be perfectly aligned so you can screw the 17 and 14mm bolts back in.

I've just found old pictures of the lower ball joints hardrace used to sell for the fk8. They used the holes and pins design. I can't believe they changed their design for cost reasons. Now I'm not exactly comfortable with this choice. They are even missing a pin in these pictures...

https://www.kamispeed.com/products/...amber-adjusters-2017-honda-civic-type-r-q0094

https://www.maperformance.com/produ...juster-2017-2019-honda-civic-type-r-fk8-q0094

Lol the fk8 service manual explicitly says to never even loosen the bolts of the ball joint.

Yup! Honda even recommend every suspension bolt/but is replaced as they deem these to be one-use only. The chance of thread galling is high on these cast aluminium components so extra car should be taken. I've re-used hundreds of these so called one-use bolts in my time with no issue - although I would recommend if it was engine related that you'd follow the manual to the tee!

As for the Hardrace design - the recessed version is for sure the better design of the two.

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