Market for a more extreme Type R variant

[CG13]

Yes it does mean they need to make a profit on it, they have to answer to shareholders. The automotive climate today is getting tough, no room for fluff. Layoffs are happening with German brands, Honda just took a 16B loss from EV BS.

Again, the retail price is set between dealers and customers, has nothing to do with Honda. Once the car hits dealer inventory (typically before it even arrives at the store) Honda has made their profit. Now its the dealer's problem (or blessing).

The FL5 is amazing, the only reason I have one is because it is manual, has enough back seat space to fit my 7 and 8 year old kids, and is still a fun little car to drive as a "short distance daily" and I probably wont go to jail if I floor it, so it has a place for sure. If it looked like the FK8, was a two door, or was basically anything other than exactly what it is I would never have noticed it exists.

Which brings us to the reason there is no market for a 90-100k Civic....what percent of Civics are Type R, you answered that. What percent of Type R are tracked (I would say more than once or twice as it can be a novelty for some people to taste)? And finally, of those that track their Type R regularly, what percent want to spend so much money on one that will be arguably compromised and less usable in an every day capacity?

V4 is 30k?
Ducati V4S is what, 38k (26% more than non S)
V4R is 50K? 32% more than S and 67% more than non S

Civic base 25k
Type R 50k (already 100% more than base)
SuperDuper Civic 90k (360% more than base)

They do not need to make a profit on every variant of a car model, or even every model in their overall portfolio. You’re just wrong here. It’s hard to believe you believe yourself. There are other types of value that a variant, an option, or even an entire car model can bring to the table for a manufacturer.

You have brought up the price to consumer vs price for the dealer multiple times. I don’t know why. You first brought it up when you stated sales volume doesn’t impact profit per unit. Hint: more sales volume equals lower cost for materials and more efficient manufacturing, which then equals more profit per unit, at whatever price Honda chooses to sell at to dealers. The difference between Honda’s price and the dealer’s price was irrelevant to the sales volume point. I think you likely know this so it seems you just are wanting to argue. I don’t know why you brought it up again. It has nothing to do with the point made on price vs performance.

I can agree with you about the practicality of the FL5 being a selling point. You wouldn’t notice the FL5 if it was different, or more expensive than it is today. I would argue many would notice if Honda offered a higher performance VARIANT and still sold the base FL5. It doesn’t mean YOU would have to choose the higher priced version that reduces the practicality you enjoy. 230,000 people chose a Civic last year and didn’t want the Type R experience you do. By your logic there should be no Type R because it cost more and offered more performance and less practicality than the models they chose.

Ducati V4- $27.8k
Ducati V4R- $50k -limited by homologation rules

V4–>V4R is an 80% increase
Type R to my suggestion is a similar increase $47.4—> 80k is 69%, or your 90k is 90% more, close to the 80% increase of the Ducati.

The base V4 is NOTHING like a base Civic. The model is Panigale and V4 is a variant along with V4S, V4R, V2 etc. To find something closer to that you’d need to go to the Ducati Panigale V2 at $17k. Then you’re looking at about 195% increase.

You may be right that there’s no market for my ask in this thread.

Sponsored

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

My point is, these changes are not being done as a charity to "enthusiasts." There's no need to put the pssy on a pedastal. Honda is a for profit business. It's silly to think Honda is taking losses so we can have a slightly faster 4 door with a wing. Just my 2. If one wants to think they are driving the holy grail, that's fine, but so does every other group of performance enthusiasts.

While I understand your sentiment, I am in disagreeance with the entirety of it.

Yes, in a nutshell, all automotive manufacturer's are a for-profit business, they have flagship high volume for-profit vehicle lineups to achieve this. However, their sporting "hotted up" models historically have always been low margin brand building prospects, and have NEVER been lucrative for them.

The best example of this in the modern day is the GR Yaris (not available in NA) which was a negative margin vehicle intended to launch the Gazoo Racing brand. Toyota lost money on each sale on the first several years of its market launch in 2020, and only recently has it started to turn a small profit after price increases and a significant time in the market. Akio Toyoda fought through significant corporate opposition to get the green light for the GR Yaris project.

While I do agree the modern Type R may carry not all of the hardcore DNA of Type R's of old, that used to have hand ported engines from factory. It is still a highly R&D'd vehicle. Externally, it shares only the roof and tailgate with the base model. Underneath the skin, it is an entirely different vehicle, with a unique front suspension design, unique powertrain, unique transmission with helical LSD, etc etc. It would be of no suprise then that the model would again be of low margin for Honda themselves, just like Type R's have always been. And through the FL5's demonstratable performance, it lives up to its Type R badge. Punching well above what its numbers on the brochure may suggest.

Which speaks for the fact that behind the big badges, Toyota, Honda, etc etc. lies car enthusiast who actually grind through their job because they love cars, and through that enthusiasm they can produce interesting cars that we as car enthusiasts ourselves can consume in the market that exists. You can't boil it down to dollars per horsepower. Because of course, there are faster cars out there. If HP was the sole objective, we would all be driving BMW M cars. But the enthusiasm for unique models also comes from sentiment. I have love for the brand and it's philosophy. I love the Honda story. I will live with the fact that it's still just a fwd civic, because with that compromise, I can have a modern, high performance HONDA.

 

[Higgs Boson]

While I understand your sentiment, I am in disagreeance with the entirety of it.

Yes, in a nutshell, all automotive manufacturer's are a for-profit business, they have flagship high volume for-profit vehicle lineups to achieve this. However, their sporting "hotted up" models historically have always been low margin brand building prospects, and have NEVER been lucrative for them.

The best example of this in the modern day is the GR Yaris (not available in NA) which was a negative margin vehicle intended to launch the Gazoo Racing brand. Toyota lost money on each sale on the first several years of its market launch in 2020, and only recently has it started to turn a small profit after price increases and a significant time in the market. Akio Toyoda fought through significant corporate opposition to get the green light for the GR Yaris project.

While I do agree the modern Type R may not all of the hardcore DNA of Type R's of old, that used to have hand ported engines from factory. It is still a highly R&D'd vehicle. Externally, it shares only the roof and tailgate with the base model. Underneath the skin, it is an entirely different vehicle, with a unique front suspension design, unique powertrain, unique transmission with helical LSD, etc etc. It would be of no suprise then that the model would again be of low margin for Honda themselves, just like Type R's have always been.

Which speaks for the fact that behind the big badges, Toyota, Honda, etc etc. lies car enthusiast who actually grind through their job because they love cars, and through that enthusiasm they can produce interesting cars that we as car enthusiasts ourselves can consume in the market that exists. You can't boil it down to dollars per horsepower. Because of course, there are faster cars out there. If HP was the sole objective, we would all be driving BMW M cars. But the enthusiasm for unique models also comes from sentiment. I have love for the brand and it's philosophy. I love the Honda story. I will live with the fact that it's still just a fwd civic, because with that compromise, I can have a modern, high performance HONDA.

I think you hit the nail on the head, the GR Yaris was unprofitable for the first several years and then it has started to turn a profit. What year did the Type R come out? 1947? It ain't a one off car anymore.

I 100% understand that there are loss leaders, there are specialty cars that can be built at a loss for a specific reason for a limited amount of time, after all, I spent 35 years in the car business, for a good portion of it on the corporate side of a Japanese car manufacturer and a big portion of it on the retail luxury side as a service advisor, service manager, sales person, sales manager, and general manager. Yeah, CG13, I believe myself, absolutely. I don't look at it from an in love enthusiast's perspective.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I think you hit the nail on the head, the GR Yaris was unprofitable for the first several years and then it has started to turn a profit. What year did the Type R come out? 1947? It ain't a one off car anymore.

I 100% understand that there are loss leaders, there are specialty cars that can be built at a loss for a specific reason for a limited amount of time, after all, I spent 35 years in the car business, for a good portion of it on the corporate side of a Japanese car manufacturer and a big portion of it on the retail luxury side as a service advisor, service manager, sales person, sales manager, and general manager. Yeah, CG13, I believe myself, absolutely. I don't look at it from an in love enthusiast's perspective.

Imagine you could launch a vehicle in 1974 and keep it relevant into 2026 without spending a cent in R&D. Sign me up to the shares on that prospect

I too spent significant time of my career in dealerships, albeit in the after sales side. Dealing with the average consumer made me lose a lot of love for cars. But moving myself into high performance/aftermarket put me in a better space, and reignited my love once again. This is a Type R forum afterall, it isn't for the average consumer. The shit we do here doesn't make perfect sense to normal people

 

[CG13]

Yes it does mean they need to make a profit on it, they have to answer to shareholders

I 100% understand that there are loss leaders, there are specialty cars that can be built at a loss for a specific reason for a limited amount of time, after all, I spent 35 years in the car business, for a good portion of it on the corporate side of a Japanese car manufacturer and a big portion of it on the retail luxury side as a service advisor, service manager, sales person, sales manager, and general manager. Yeah, CG13, I believe myself, absolutely. I don't look at it from an in love enthusiast's perspective.

These two quotes are contradictory. Like I said, you don’t believe the first one. You changed it with the second one.

Then you added meaningless self-qualification and a misguided insult on top. Perfect forum etiquette!

 

[Higgs Boson]

These two quotes are contradictory. Like I said, you don’t believe the first one. You changed it with the second one.

They are not contradictory. You just don't understand what I am talking about.

The Type R is not a one off car designed to launch a sub brand to be sold at a loss for a few years but with the intention to become profitable. Its been out for YEARS. Its a Mustang GT sold next to the V6 Mustang. Maybe I will grant you Dark Horse.

 

[TchnoZ33]

I would pay 80k for a Honda type R that’s very track focused buttttt not a FWD one…which then would no longer be a type R…

 

[Junsupersti]

https://hondaracing-us.honda.com/Articles/Touring/TypeR

So you want an fl5 version of the fk8 TC

you can just build your own for much less

 

[CG13]

https://hondaracing-us.honda.com/Articles/Touring/TypeR

So you want an fl5 version of the fk8 TC

you can just build your own for much less

No. Did you read my first post? I linked the FL5 TCR car and referenced it multiple times. I want a street legal FL5 with many of the concepts from the TCR car.

 

[Junsupersti]

The TC is the street version of the TCR race car at your $80k price point

 

[Cueyo]

The TC is the street version of the TCR race car at your $80k price point

That's not what the site says, they call it a racecar

This just sounds like the FL5 TCR for a different class of racing.

The closest you could get to what OP suggested is the Civic Type R S-grade that broke the n-ring record.

 

[Junsupersti]

https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/152865/2-x-honda-civic-fl5-tcr

If you want a real JAS FL5

 

[CG13]

The TC is the street version of the TCR race car at your $80k price point

My understanding was there was an FK8 TC and an FK8 TCR. Both were not street legal. The TC is a scaled down version of the TCR.

I would like something like either of these but in FL5 and maintaining street legality. Thanks for adding the TC to the discussion, I’d forgotten it existed at a lower price point and demonstrates the price I had in mind wouldn’t be far off what’s possible.

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I would pay 80k for a Honda type R that’s very track focused buttttt not a FWD one…which then would no longer be a type R…

 

[Sporky McGeuschky]

Ehhhxactly.
Completely different animal.
One could argue that this is the right tool for the job, if you only want it to do one job.