Cross-Shopping FL5?

[thatonedaveguy]

uh… any videos to prove this bw can do zero to 60 in 4 seconds and 12 flat and high 11’s on a bad day in the quarter and typically run significantly faster on most tracks. I get it love my type r but it’s slow af and I’m good with that.

Standing starts no, FWD has too much of a traction penalty. We're talking roll races. Type R needs only 60-70~ more horsepower than stock to have a greater power to weight ratio than the CT4V Blackwing.

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[Bigfx]

Standing starts no, FWD has too much of a traction penalty. We're talking roll races. Type R needs only 60-70~ more horsepower than stock to have a greater power to weight ratio than the CT4V Blackwing.

Yeah even roll races I don’t see it, the 4 banger starts running out of steam and the 6 on the bw starts to really wind up in triple digits. Have you drove a blackwing?

 

[Bigfx]

Just to add to this just watched a video of an m2 putting buses on a tsp tuned Integra, so I think maybe you might be a little off on your assumption. Short of a new turbo and e85 you are not going to even compete with a black wing.

 

[Bandit_TypeR]

Thanks,

After I posted this (should have done it before...), I did a quick search, and indeed the CT4-V Blackwing caught my eye. pretty much everything I want (possibly minus reliability and space, as it seems smaller than the CTR), bit over my budget.

but, none seem available in inventory, I guess that getting a 4BW will require a custom/special order? and I have no idea if the sealership will ask over MSRP...

will call a few dealers over the weekend.

The CT4-V is a beast. Reviewers speak very highly of the inputs and manual transmission on that car. Hard to find at a fair price. But, I don't think you could wrong with that car.

I had an '23 M240i Xdrive before the CTR. The M240i was an 8- spd ZF auto. The car was crazy fast. However, it lacked a soul. The inputs, steering, brakes, etc. were very numb. There was no feedback at all. The car also weight a ton and you definitely felt that. Lastly, I very much missed driving a manual and I missed the 4 doors I had with my 6-spd. manual BMW 330i ZHP ('04) that I auctioned (regret I did this).

The CTR is an amazing car to drive. Especially once it is moving. The inputs are fantastic, the balance, weight distrubtion, etc. I will keep this car a long time as it is likely the last of a kind. The main weakness of the CTR from my perspective is the front wheel drive and only from a complete stop. Lots of wheel slip, hop under hard acceleration from a stop. With that said, the CTR is not built for that purpose so it does not bother me and as I previously said, once the car is moving, it is sublime. The front end claws through corners and the power band is fantastic. I also very much appreciate the 4 doors and the ability to comfortably carry passengers. Lastly, I think the CTR is pretty much perfect from a looks perspective. Mature, but sporty. Very tasteful and I get compliments all the time.

 

[menikmati]

I think cars should be viewed more as a system, rather than be judged from a small subset of metrics and statistics.

I can guarantee that regardless of how good the FL5 is, people on other forums are going to discount it because of its drivetrain and saying "lol FWD" rather than giving it a chance.

 

[zumbooruk]

This ^

A big heavy v8 is apples and oranges to a Type R driving experience. Luxury sedans are great for standing starts and enjoying the v8 engine sound and experience every time you put your foot down while being pampered with luxury amenities.

The Type R on the other hand can brake later and take corners at a higher speed than heavy rwd v8 sedans. Curvy, hilly back roads are where the Type R is at home and you will have much more fun on those in an R than a heavy car. If you truly want more straight line performance, an FL5 completely stock with nothing but a TSP or Phearable tune is faster in a straight line than the CT4 V Blackwing. But you can't realistically do anything to make the CT4VBW as light as the Type R is.

Lastly, Cadillac and BMW are not capable of making a stick shift that is as good as the one in the Type R even if you get into the 6 figure cars.

my understanding that the CT5 is the "big heavy v8" designed/optimized for straight line (which I could care less about), whereas the CT4 has closer gear ratio, and was designed/optimized for the track...

the CT4-V just about the size of the CTR, actually slightly smaller inside, it is indeed 700lb heavier than the CTR, but it is supposed to be fairly nimble, and fun-to-drive.

the CTR is 10lb/hp whereas the 4BW is only 8lb/hp

per one review: The Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, despite being approximately 700 pounds heavier than the Honda Civic Type R, manages to feel much lighter than its actual weight suggests. This is largely due to its well-tuned chassis and advanced suspension system. The Blackwing's weight is distributed across a rear-wheel-drive platform, which contributes to its balanced handling characteristics.

based on the review I read, the Tremec transmission is supposed to be as good as, if not better than, the Honda: The Tremec six-speed manual in the CT4-V Blackwing features a well-weighted clutch pedal with predictable engagement. The clutch picks up at an intuitive point in the pedal travel, making it easy to modulate. Drivers have praised its smooth engagement. it is widely praised for its exceptional precision and feel. Shifts are described as smooth and taut. The gearbox is noted for its crispness, with some drivers considering it superior to other performance cars in its class. The Blackwing's transmission provides excellent feedback to the driver. The gear changes are described as seamless, and the overall experience is highly communicative. This feedback contributes to the car's engaging driving dynamics

and it does not have the 1st/2nd shifting issue... which, BTW, I have been experiencing with my 2007 Si :-(

I love my Si, but I want to get a new fun-to-drive manual car before the manuals go extinct.

my first and only car I considered was the CTR, but then I started thinking...

I am planning to test drive the CT4-V Blackwing MT this weekend, and will report back

 

[zumbooruk]

uh… any videos to prove this bw can do zero to 60 in 4 seconds and 12 flat and high 11’s on a bad day in the quarter and typically run significantly faster on most tracks. I get it love my type r but it’s slow af and I’m good with that.

I also do not care much about speed, especially straight line.

I do care about what I call "fun-to-drive", I consider driving the best thing you can do with your pants on... yet I've never been on a racetrack...

Therefore the raw speed difference between the two is not a priority for me.

as I mentioned earlier, I might end up just tossing a coin (enough times to get the right result...)

 

[us17094]

Agree, CTR is probably the perfect car for me, but then I started thinking (which is always a dangerous thing): "if I am paying the stealership $5-$10k over, might as well put this into a possibly "better" car... which is why I posted this thread.

I never bought a used car... as mentioned above, I only bought two cars so far, both new, and I kept both for nearly 20 years (and our 2006 Sienna, also bought new, has over 250K miles)

also, I believe that the cars you mentioned are all two door, I rather have a four door.

I contacted Honda dealers all the way from Santa Maria up north, down to San Diego, none were willing to go below $5K over. one said that they are "very flexible and willing to negotiate ... from a starting price of $70k...". another was "taking bids, with current bid at $57k". others were $5K over with additional mandatory dealer installed options of $3-$4k. some of them still contact me every few weeks, yet no one have gone down to MSRP.


and the more I read (and watch) about CT4-V Blackwing, the more I lean toward it. though I have not yet talked to any Cadillac dealership, and I have no idea what the selling price might be.

I assume MSRP since they all seem to be special order, and no dealer has a manual transmission in stock...

My guess is that CA dealers just play by different set of rules - but my anecdotal experience, and similar experiences described by other members suggest dealers are much less likely to come down on markups over the phone or email. If a few of those dealers aren't too far a drive, you might consider getting some documentation of your finances, sit down with the sales manager and say you are willing to buy that day at MSRP. You might not get it at MSRP but coming in person with cash in hand can be a strong motivator and they might be willing to get close to MSRP - particularly if you are willing to walk away.

 

[BC504]

I know it isn't a ct4-v bw but I had a 2016 ats-v 6 speed and that car was an animal in the corners. GM really worked some magic with the alpha chassis and the 4bw is an evolution on that so I can only imagine how much fun it would be to toss around a curve. My biggest gripes with the ats-v were cabin space, turbo lag, and electrical gremlins.

The caddy was a fair amount smaller than the fl5 is. I had my first son when I still had the caddy and with his rear facing seat in the back, my wife's knees were pushed into the dashboard. It's a very tight car but you need to sit in one to see for yourself.

Turbo lag was annoyingly powerful meaning that in second gear it would feel like it wasn't accelerating at all at lower rpms, then boost would hit hard and break the rear loose pretty rapidly on MPSS tires. It was fun every now and then, but largely aggravating for everyday midrange rpm driving.

Don't get me started on the electrical issues with a GM though. Memory seats would return 95% of the way to the previous position everytime I started the car, meaning after a few starts the seat was way off and had to be "reset." HUD had a mind of its own and would only turn on 4 out of every 5 startups. Heated seats that stopped working, phantom battery drain, radio door wouldn't open intermittently, etc. Just a bunch of dumb problems in a car with a $75k sticker (fully optioned minus sunroof).

OP you really need to try out both for yourself and see which fits you more. While shopping, I would also look at the DE5 integra for a more "upscale CTR" as well.

 

[us17094]

The caddy was a fair amount smaller than the fl5 is. I had my first son when I still had the caddy and with his rear facing seat in the back, my wife's knees were pushed into the dashboard. It's a very tight car but you need to sit in one to see for yourself.

It always surprises me how little back seat legroom 4-door sport sedans have. Why have four-doors if a teenager can't fit comfortably back there!? The rear seat legroom in the Type R is what sealed the deal for my wife. Fun car and comfortable for our family of four.

 

[zumbooruk]

I know it isn't a ct4-v bw but I had a 2016 ats-v 6 speed and that car was an animal in the corners. GM really worked some magic with the alpha chassis and the 4bw is an evolution on that so I can only imagine how much fun it would be to toss around a curve. My biggest gripes with the ats-v were cabin space, turbo lag, and electrical gremlins.

The caddy was a fair amount smaller than the fl5 is. I had my first son when I still had the caddy and with his rear facing seat in the back, my wife's knees were pushed into the dashboard. It's a very tight car but you need to sit in one to see for yourself.

Turbo lag was annoyingly powerful meaning that in second gear it would feel like it wasn't accelerating at all at lower rpms, then boost would hit hard and break the rear loose pretty rapidly on MPSS tires. It was fun every now and then, but largely aggravating for everyday midrange rpm driving.

Don't get me started on the electrical issues with a GM though. Memory seats would return 95% of the way to the previous position everytime I started the car, meaning after a few starts the seat was way off and had to be "reset." HUD had a mind of its own and would only turn on 4 out of every 5 startups. Heated seats that stopped working, phantom battery drain, radio door wouldn't open intermittently, etc. Just a bunch of dumb problems in a car with a $75k sticker (fully optioned minus sunroof).

OP you really need to try out both for yourself and see which fits you more. While shopping, I would also look at the DE5 integra for a more "upscale CTR" as well.

It always surprises me how little back seat legroom 4-door sport sedans have. Why have four-doors if a teenager can't fit comfortably back there!? The rear seat legroom in the Type R is what sealed the deal for my wife. Fun car and comfortable for our family of four.

Thanks, I did quick search specifically for turbo lag issue on the CT4-V Blackwing

"the CT4-V Blackwing appears to deliver power smoothly and responsively, with no significant turbo lag issues reported in the available search results." (via perplexity.ai)

"lightweight titanium-aluminide turbines virtually eliminate turbo lag"

as far as electrical gremlins, I found this "A technical service bulletin (TSB) was issued for the 2020 Cadillac CT4 regarding intermittent issues with power seat, power mirrors, and steering wheel entry/exit memory recall settings"

rear seat space is indeed my main concern about the 4BW. on the other hand, I rarely if ever have anyone in my rear seat anymore. kids are all grown up, and the only time I recall a passenger was taking my son from/to the airport, and only once in four years our daughter joined the ride... We also own a Suburban, which is a slightly bigger vehicle, so I could, if I have to, drive that beast.

btw, the current CT4 and CT5 are based on the Alpha 2 platform, whereas Camaro still uses the older Alpha platform.

as of now, based on just research and reading, the way I see it, the CTR is the more practical (reliability, space/utility, gas mileage), the 4BW is more fun to drive (RWD, more powerful/better power to weight ratio, etc)

 

[princers]

Whoops, I didn't know they took away the manual in the 2025 Golf R.

May I ask what made you rule out the Corolla and Elantra?

theres no comparing the 2 cars (see my sig). the type R is a completely different animal, raw in comparison to the GR. the awd system and everything is nice in the GR but it lacks everything loved (or hated) about the type R - stiff suspension, huggy seats, the noise of rocks pinging off the undercarriage, etc etc

 

[menikmati]

...the noise of rocks pinging off the undercarriage, etc etc

Ah, the ones that eventually lead to getting stuck between the brake pads and rotor.

 

[jtlctr]

Ah, the ones that eventually lead to getting stock between the brake pads and rotor.

I’m sure a few people have wondered what the hell was going on when they watched me pull into a parking lot and start driving backwards while whipping the steering wheel lock to lock.

 

[invalidsalad]

Cross-post from Reddit. Similar situation. Also considered a 2014ish 911.


TLDR: Picked up an FL5 over M3/IS500/Volvo V60 Polestar

While it’s not exactly an STI, I was looking at newer M3 Comps as a “do everything”. If we got the wagon version here, I would have bought one. It’s entirely more car than my track day skills can handle at the moment, and the consumables will cost a LOT more. Also, while I can easily afford it, doesn’t mean I have to spend that much. Only offered with a manual in base trim, with no ACC available on the Manual.

The Volvo being a PHEV absolutely hauls stuff and ass. Would be the car I’d get for my wife if she needed one and liked it. An extremely grown-up place to sit. Relaxing. But, for me, it’s heavy and I cannot imagine how fast I’d go through tires. It’s also the second most expensive behind the M3. Auto only.

The IS500 sounds amazing. The rear doors and trunk openings are so small, it’s not all that practical for me. I sat in one and it was not as connected or communicative as I would have liked. Auto. Also, at MSRP of 62 or whatever it’s a real value compared to the Volvo and the M3.

Ioniq 5N — can’t really do full EV, but it is hysterical. Depreciation is very high.

I did not look at any of the Cadillac V options. You can get a manual there. Maybe should have.

Nor did I look at the Camaro or Mustang track/enthusiast models. Just not my thing.

I’ve always had a soft-spot for early 2000s era cars from my twenties, Rally or Road. Evos, STIs, the JDM era road cars (fd, s2000, nsx, etc). I suspect that’s normal for someone in their forties or late thirties these days.

I’ve owned a 2000 2.5 RS and a bug-eye WRX Wagon both which I auto-crossed a lot. A couple other “sporty” cars.

I, like you did not dig the EK styling.

I actually flew and bought my FL5 sight unseen. Immediately drove 600 miles home. 28mpg @ 85. It is not as quiet as any of the above options, but I’m old enough to think basically all new cars are pretty quiet. Comes with all the driver aids I would want AND they are off by default when you start the car.

It will absolutely spin the wheels on cold tires trying to get to 60 at the top of 2nd. The shifter is great. The engine doesn’t sound like very much, but people seem to fix that with an intakes and/or an exhaust.

The seats for me, are killer. I don’t mind that they aren’t heated.

Warmed up, bone stock, it has a shocking amount of grip on the mountain roads here. It feels more special than the Integra S, probably because of the seats.

Out the door it was 20-40K less than any of the other cars I looked at. It felt just as fun and maybe more special. That price delta is a lot of consumables and track time. In that way, it’s great value for money, imo.

Conversely, it’s expensive for “just” a civic. But it gets economy in other ways: a whole new engine is ~7k. I don’t have to think about where I park too much.

:: I spent MONTHS thinking about it. Couldn’t be happier.

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