Misha Charoudin at the Ring in a stock FL5

[yargk]

The CTR is an amazing car. I'm going to end up buying two of them (FL5 and FK8). However, there is no reason to defend it with regards to cooling. Honda dropped the ball. They increased the price 10K, almost 30%, from the FK8 to the FL5 and could have used some of that premium in price to engineer the cooling system to a level that would work for 20 minute sessions driven by a pro in 100 F weather. And they didn't.

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[CTR]

The CTR is an amazing car. I'm going to end up buying two of them (FL5 and FK8). However, there is no reason to defend it with regards to cooling. Honda dropped the ball. They increased the price 10K, almost 30%, from the FK8 to the FL5 and could have used some of that premium in price to engineer the cooling system to a level that would work for 20 minute sessions driven by a pro in 100 F weather. And they didn't.

Design it for maybe 5% of the owners (who are still not pro drivers) or add tech features that 95% of owners use daily? I think Honda made the correct choice.

People were already complaining about the price in 2022 when it was released. There simply wasn't enough money to do it all. I think there is a chance the LE adds some cooling features but I wouldn't expect it to transform the car.

 

[yargk]

Design it for maybe 5% of the owners (who are still not pro drivers) or add tech features that 95% of owners use daily? I think Honda made the correct choice.

People were already complaining about the price in 2022 when it was released. There simply wasn't enough money to do it all. I think there is a chance the LE adds some cooling features but I wouldn't expect it to transform the car.

I just have no patience for these arguments. Why make the CTR at all? If it's not for the 5% of track drivers, then just make a hellcat for the stoplight racers. Or a civic with an appearance package for the people who want looks. Why advertise it as a track car? The whole point of halo cars is to overbuild cars that are only used properly by a small percentage of owners.

The illogical defense is the same as Apple product owners that claim bugs are features (and I like macs) or Tesla owners who defend problems with a passion. Why is it so difficult to be an enthusiast, but be able to accept flaws in the brand you like? rant off

 

[CTR]

I just have no patience for these arguments. Why make the CTR at all?

This wasn't supposed to be an LFA or even the NSX. Those were halo cars that were extremely expensive and showcased what Toyota and Honda could do. I'd expect you can't even take those to a track in 100° F without something overheating after a few laps...

This is a $45K car that middle-aged enthusiasts can afford and that's the market. I know in my case I wouldn't have bought one if the MSRP was $55K. We know there are some flaws but expecting any production car outside of a Porsche to be a dedicated track car you can abuse right off the showroom floor is unrealistic.

A lot of enthusiasts buy cars that have a strong aftermarket support. A better radiator and oil cooler will solve most of the overheating problems for the 5% that ever drive the car hard enough to need them.

 

[yargk]

This wasn't supposed to be an LFA or even the NSX.

I just don't think adding adequate cooling to a 315 hp 45k FWD sports car transforms it into an LFA. The Golf R doesn't overheat. I tracked a golf sportwagen I bought for 20k, which didn't overheat. And my old WRX didn't overheat.

 

[CTR]

You said the FL5 is supposed to be their halo car which I don't think it is. I was just saying that I believe you would have a hard time tracking those actual halo cars in 100 F temps without having some issue.

The FL5 is a capable car out of the box at a very specific price point. It's obvious that Honda prioritized technology and safety features over increased cooling capacity. Manufacturers do this all the time. They decide which makes sense based on what MOST owners will use their car for.

I'd guess that typical usage for a vast majority of owners is less than one track day a year, spirited driving on the weekends, and commuting. It has zero cooling issues in these conditions.

I'm confident that adding a thicker radiator, oil cooler, and the associated plumbing would increase the cost and weight to a level where it might not be viable in the market.

 

[yargk]

1. There are lots of cheap cars that don't overheat. Golfs, older WRXs, Camaros

2. You have no evidence that more cooling would make the car too costly and heavy.

 

[CTR]

If those cars can do the same times as an FL5 on a track without overheating in 100 F temps then maybe they are superior.

WRX’s are not fast and are a small step above commuter car. STi’s are notorious for heat soak issues and overheating when pushed. If a car is significantly slower and the engine isn’t producing the same horsepower level it will of course have an easier time cooling the engine.

Look at the current aftermarket solutions to the cooling. The radiators are solid aluminum construction and significantly thicker. Material cost alone would say it will increase the cost of the car. We do not have an oil cooler currently so that would be an additional component on top of all the plumbing and thermostat to make it work.

In terms of weight the extra fluid alone will increase the weight...

 

[Noize]

Just got around to watching this. Car is absolutely mental stock.

 

[J1Avs]

I just don't think adding adequate cooling to a 315 hp 45k FWD sports car transforms it into an LFA. The Golf R doesn't overheat. I tracked a golf sportwagen I bought for 20k, which didn't overheat. And my old WRX didn't overheat.

The Golf R/GTI hilariously overheats. The WRX overheats, it just doesn't tell you until it grenades. The GRC overheats the transfer case. The GR86/BRZ overheat.

None of the hot hatches, sport coupes, etc., survive track abuse without some cooling mods.

The FL5 overheating is entirely climate-based as well. I live in the PNW. The car doesn't limp out. Does it pull power, sure. Asking a 45K car to go 20+ minutes in 90* is a lot. The average track day driver won't have any issue if they crank the heat and remove the rain guard, and maybe add a good radiator.

Most cars need additional cooling capacity. Outside of GM and Porsche -- nothing is "great". Go take a look at how much you need to spend to keep a stock GTR cool

 

[BigBird]

The Golf R/GTI hilariously overheats. The WRX overheats, it just doesn't tell you until it grenades. The GRC overheats the transfer case. The GR86/BRZ overheat.

None of the hot hatches, sport coupes, etc., survive track abuse without some cooling mods.

The FL5 overheating is entirely climate-based as well. I live in the PNW. The car doesn't limp out. Does it pull power, sure. Asking a 45K car to go 20+ minutes in 90* is a lot. The average track day driver won't have any issue if they crank the heat and remove the rain guard, and maybe add a good radiator.

Most cars need additional cooling capacity. Outside of GM and Porsche -- nothing is "great". Go take a look at how much you need to spend to keep a stock GTR cool

I was able to have my 7.5 Golf R never overheat even in 95F ambient, but I did some cooling mods: I had the CSF DSG Cooler and Radiator, and a CTS direct fit intercooler, downpipe, exhaust, stock turbo with a tune, coilovers and all bushings replaced with poly. IATS were always 20-25F or less above ambient and coolant temps never went above 225, and oil temps stayed below that always. Never limp mode, never any issues with that car.

That car was amazing and consistent. It could have easily done a 2:09 with a better driver at VIR in Tuner3. In 2021 on 225/40-18 71R as I was hitting 144.5 on the back straight, and 144 on the front straight my first time there, I didn't really get the lines through T1-T4 and over braked in South Bend and could have braked later down the back straight, brakes had me hesitant for my first time there as they would only be good for 1.5 laps. DTC-60 weren't the answer

Was able to go lap after lap after lap with the same power without even needing a cool down lap after I got a BBK after VIR

 

[J1Avs]

I was able to have my 7.5 Golf R never overheat even in 95F ambient, but I did some cooling mods: I had the CSF DSG Cooler and Radiator, and a CTS direct fit intercooler, downpipe, exhaust, stock turbo with a tune, coilovers and all bushings replaced with poly. IATS were always 20-25F or less above ambient and coolant temps never went above 225, and oil temps stayed below that always. Never limp mode, never any issues with that car.

That car was amazing and consistent. It could have easily done a 2:09 with a better driver at VIR in Tuner3. In 2021 on 225/40-18 71R as I was hitting 144.5 on the back straight, and 144 on the front straight my first time there, I didn't really get the lines through T1-T4 and over braked in South Bend and could have braked later down the back straight, brakes had me hesitant for my first time there as they would only be good for 1.5 laps. DTC-60 weren't the answer

Was able to go lap after lap after lap with the same power without even needing a cool down lap after I got a BBK after VIR

Proof cooling mods are useful ...but doubtful it would have been after to do that without it, no?

 

[BigBird]

Proof cooling mods are useful ...but doubtful it would have been after to do that without it, no?

Yeah no doubt it probably needed it. I built that car during Covid downtime, so I just ordered basically everything that could bolt-on and be legal for Tuner.

 

[Crild]

The Golf R/GTI hilariously overheats. The WRX overheats, it just doesn't tell you until it grenades. The GRC overheats the transfer case. The GR86/BRZ overheat.

None of the hot hatches, sport coupes, etc., survive track abuse without some cooling mods.

The FL5 overheating is entirely climate-based as well. I live in the PNW. The car doesn't limp out. Does it pull power, sure. Asking a 45K car to go 20+ minutes in 90* is a lot. The average track day driver won't have any issue if they crank the heat and remove the rain guard, and maybe add a good radiator.

Most cars need additional cooling capacity. Outside of GM and Porsche -- nothing is "great". Go take a look at how much you need to spend to keep a stock GTR cool

GTI/R overheating is factually wrong. Those cars do not have any problems with overheating like the Civic does.

 

[Rhorn]

The CTR is an amazing car. I'm going to end up buying two of them (FL5 and FK8). However, there is no reason to defend it with regards to cooling. Honda dropped the ball. They increased the price 10K, almost 30%, from the FK8 to the FL5 and could have used some of that premium in price to engineer the cooling system to a level that would work for 20 minute sessions driven by a pro in 100 F weather. And they didn't.

Amen. Even the Elantra N has better cooling than the CTR which is embarrassing.

And it really isnt a huge deal in terms of R&D to add one or two oil coolers. It can be done with the current hardware, all they have to do is just put them in.

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