Official 2023 Civic Type R (FL5) U.S. Specifications Released! 315 hp / 310 lb-ft!

[VarmintCong]

True. I sold my FK8 for 44k at 16k miles. Sure I don't like adm but I'd sound like a massive jackass if I'll sell for more than MSRP but, expect MSRP for myself.

well said. People don’t understand what ADM is. Supply and demand ceases to work when you stick to MSRP. The ADM is the natural solution when demand drives the price above MSRP. Real inflation (not the doctored CPI) is around 15%. So expect 15% increases in car prices, by a combination of higher MSRP and ADM.

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[VarmintCong]

Si is selling for 37-40k in Texas...

For a used 10th gen.

 

[VarmintCong]

Which is $55,125.00. That’s about as high as I’d pay. My guess is that it’s going to be priced as much as the Golf R here in Canada which is $52,000.00 loaded up. So that slides right in there with my $2000-$3000 markup I could stomach. For reference a Si is $35,000.00 cnd.

Once you start talking 60k plus your getting into this territory…

Saw this 2014 Porsche Cayman on AutoTrader's iPad app
http://www.autotrader.ca/go/5-55822482

Saw this 2018 Porsche 718 Cayman on AutoTrader's iPad app
http://www.autotrader.ca/go/5-56021455

There you go, you can pay MSRP for an 8 year old Cayman.

 

[007]

Are we shopping CUVs or performance cars? The excitement over the GRC dwarfs the Type R. It’s not just AWD it’s front and rear mechanical diffs with optional rear bias. Reviews are likely to say it’s the more fun, more involving drive.

it’s great actually, that the Type R finally has real competition now that Subaru is focused on picking lint from its navel and the Golf R is chasing BMW prices. It should make both GRC and Type R easier to get.

I don’t see how AWD can be more engaging. It’s a downgrade in terms of feel vs any well sorted FWD or RWD chassis.

I am willing to bet that the CTR ends up being a more engaging chassis among the reviewers.

 

[Pierito]

I don't have a singular doubt that the GRC will be far more engaging to drive than the type R.

The fact that 70% of the power can be sent to the rear is enough to make it more engaging imo.

 

[VarmintCong]

I don’t see how AWD can be more engaging. It’s a downgrade in terms of feel vs any well sorted FWD or RWD chassis.

I am willing to bet that the CTR ends up being a more engaging chassis among the reviewers.

Engaging is one of those words that means different things to different people. GRC looks like more fun, especially with that rear bias.

I'm not sure which I will get, leaning toward CTR since my kids get bigger every week. The Corolla hatch has a joke for a back seat. And Honda manuals are just a joy with every shift.

Honestly I'd get an Si hatch if Honda would make one. After going from 2017 Sport hatch to 2020 Si, I can't go back to an open diff.

 

[Tickle]

well said. People don’t understand what ADM is. Supply and demand ceases to work when you stick to MSRP. The ADM is the natural solution when demand drives the price above MSRP. Real inflation (not the doctored CPI) is around 15%. So expect 15% increases in car prices, by a combination of higher MSRP and ADM.

I work at a store that does not mark up above MSRP, and we shouldn't.

However it does create conflicts that we do not. Still the inventory turns.

 

[007]

Engaging is one of those words that means different things to different people. GRC looks like more fun, especially with that rear bias.

I'm not sure which I will get, leaning toward CTR since my kids get bigger every week. The Corolla hatch has a joke for a back seat. And Honda manuals are just a joy with every shift.

Honestly I'd get an Si hatch if Honda would make one. After going from 2017 Sport hatch to 2020 Si, I can't go back to an open diff.

It’s true that engaging means different things to different people. To me, it boils down to how responsive and communicative the steering is, how precise the manual shifter is, and how light on its feet the chassis feels. In other words, literal points of engagement that can be felt at all times, even when driving casually.

Front vs rear bias is meaningless to me because I, as most, spend 99% of my time driving slow around urban streets. My prior M3’s had great weight distribution and frankly I don’t miss it because the f87 M2C, for example, was numb af. Couldn’t stand it.

IMO, Honda has an edge over Toyota in these areas if previous Type R’s are anything to go by.

 

[VarmintCong]

I work at a store that does not mark up above MSRP, and we shouldn't.

However it does create conflicts that we do not. Still the inventory turns.

I've seen dealers that never did before, but are doing it now.

 

[VarmintCong]

It’s true that engaging means different things to different people. To me, it boils down to how responsive and communicative the steering is, how precise the manual shifter is, and how light on its feet the chassis feels. In other words, literal points of engagement that can be felt at all times, even when driving casually.

Front vs rear bias is meaningless to me because I, as most, spend 99% of my time driving slow around urban streets. My prior M3’s had great weight distribution and frankly I don’t miss it because the f87 M2C, for example, was numb af. Couldn’t stand it.

IMO, Honda has an edge over Toyota in these areas if previous Type R’s are anything to go by.

Is that the car in your sig, you no longer have it? It's a shame, cause BMWs used to have fantastic steering feel. I lost interest in BMWs after the E46s and went back to Hondas. Not that they were better, just didn't feel the benefit to spending the money on BMWs.

I would not judge the GRC based on other (boring) Toyotas. The GR4 is getting rave reviews for things like engagement.

 

[007]

Is that the car in your sig, you no longer have it? It's a shame, cause BMWs used to have fantastic steering feel. I lost interest in BMWs after the E46s and went back to Hondas. Not that they were better, just didn't feel the benefit to spending the money on BMWs.

I would not judge the GRC based on other (boring) Toyotas. The GR4 is getting rave reviews for things like engagement.

Yeah, the M2C just felt boring and not engaging enough. Yes, it was brutally fast, but that gets old quickly. You’re right, over the years BMW’s became the ultimate boring machines. Too soft and too refined. Nothing like my old e36 M3 or even the e46 M3, which I’ve owned for a very long time.

My take on the GRC is that it’s a GR Yaris with 400 lbs of added weight. I test drove a GR Yaris on my trip to Japan and loved it, but it felt somewhat numb too if I’m honest and not as raw as the reviews claimed. No doubt it was fun and responsive, but nowhere near the motorsport feeing of say S2000. So I can only imagine the GRC will feel worse. But that’s mere speculation on my part. I’d love to test drive the Morizo edition and be proven otherwise. If it blew me away, then sure, I’d buy it.

I’m definitely a hard person to please, so there’s that lol. Admittedly, I look for that old school feeling in new cars, which is simply gone and forgotten nowadays. But somehow the FK8 CTR managed to bring a lot of those old feelings back. I imagine the FL5 will do the same.

 

[VarmintCong]

Yeah, the M2C just felt boring and not engaging enough. Yes, it was brutally fast, but that gets old quickly. You’re right, over the years BMW’s became the ultimate boring machines. Too soft and too refined. Nothing like my old e36 M3 or even the e46 M3, which I’ve owned for a very long time.

My take on the GRC is that it’s a GR Yaris with 400 lbs of added weight. I test drove a GR Yaris on my trip to Japan and loved it, but it felt somewhat numb too if I’m honest and not as raw as the reviews claimed. No doubt it was fun and responsive, but nowhere near the motorsport feeing of say S2000. So I can only imagine the GRC will feel worse. But that’s mere speculation on my part. I’d love to test drive the Morizo edition and be proven otherwise. If it blew me away, then sure, I’d buy it.

I’m definitely a hard person to please, so there’s that lol. Admittedly, I look for that old school feeling in new cars, which is simply gone and forgotten nowadays. But somehow the FK8 CTR managed to bring a lot of those old feelings back. I imagine the FL5 will do the same.

Sounds like you need a Lotus Emira. Or if you don't want a Toyota engine, the Cayman GTS.

I went from a 2004 330i ZHP to the 2017 Civic hatch, when I got a field service job (the BMW had 140k miles, I had it for 11 years). The Civic and later Si were light and responsive like you said, perfect for work driving.

 

[citrus]

My take on the GRC is that it’s a GR Yaris with 400 lbs of added weight. I test drove a GR Yaris on my trip to Japan and loved it, but it felt somewhat numb too if I’m honest and not as raw as the reviews claimed. No doubt it was fun and responsive, but nowhere near the motorsport feeing of say S2000. So I can only imagine the GRC will feel worse. But that’s mere speculation on my part. I’d love to test drive the Morizo edition and be proven otherwise. If it blew me away, then sure, I’d buy it.

I’m definitely a hard person to please, so there’s that lol. Admittedly, I look for that old school feeling in new cars, which is simply gone and forgotten nowadays. But somehow the FK8 CTR managed to bring a lot of those old feelings back. I imagine the FL5 will do the same.

No, no, no, no, no. You're supposed to hype the GRC so that everyone goes to buy that and leaves the FL5 for us! Shhh!!!

Never mind that the adjustable torque split seems to be basically useless, based on several first drive impressions I've read mentioning that the car still understeers even in 30/70 mode.

 

[TrackS]

It’s true that engaging means different things to different people. To me, it boils down to how responsive and communicative the steering is, how precise the manual shifter is, and how light on its feet the chassis feels. In other words, literal points of engagement that can be felt at all times, even when driving casually.

Front vs rear bias is meaningless to me because I, as most, spend 99% of my time driving slow around urban streets. My prior M3’s had great weight distribution and frankly I don’t miss it because the f87 M2C, for example, was numb af. Couldn’t stand it.

IMO, Honda has an edge over Toyota in these areas if previous Type R’s are anything to go by.

I agree with everything you said - except for the fact that a rear bias (or simply rear wheel drive) will inherently have a built-in head-start advantage towards feeling more connected to the road (if all other things are equal) due to the shifting of mass during acceleration (pressure / friction is reduced from/between the contact patch of the front wheels). Physics is a hard thing to combat unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure the R Will be great regardless, and to be honest, I doubt Toyota perfected the Corolla anyway.. so just because it might have an advantage, doesn't guarantee it will definitely feel better - as you allude to, there are many other factors at play.

 

[VarmintCong]

I agree with everything you said - except for the fact that a rear bias (or simply rear wheel drive) will inherently have a built-in head-start advantage towards feeling more connected to the road (if all other things are equal) due to the shifting of mass during acceleration (pressure / friction is reduced from/between the contact patch of the front wheels). Physics is a hard thing to combat unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure the R Will be great regardless, and to be honest, I doubt Toyota perfected the Corolla anyway.. so just because it might have an advantage, doesn't guarantee it will definitely feel better - as you allude to, there are many other factors at play.

Well the idea is when cornering, a rear base gives you a lot more options, and makes it a lot more interesting, than FWD, which is just manage the turn in and then manage traction on the way out. Throw in rain or snow and the car should be a blast. Of course the best FWD cars like a Type R can also get the rear end involved.

The GR Yaris has no problem rotating in the corners, so the GRC should be the same, but it's not set up with a drift mode like the Focus RS or new Golf R.

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