2023 Civic Type R (FL5) U.S. Pricing: $42,895 MSRP

[mbaapk]

These prices are asset bubble peak phenomena, and just like Facebook stock, down 73% this year, they will pop.

Two totally different things. This not a commodity or a company with s bad intangible valuation. Its a high quality and rare good that is strongly desired. As long as those dynamics hold so will pricing pressure. Look at the used FK8s in relation to the broader used market.

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[Y82OneTwoSix]

Idk what you mean by that. The tire is a dealership installed accessory

Maybe I am missing something with respect to your reply but the Cup 2 tires on my 2021 CTR were factory installed at the Swindon assembly plant and merely suggested that it would have been nice to have that same option as we did for the final model year for the two FK8 models.

Having been an automotive enthusiast for some 55 years I have learned that anytime that I can have an accessory/part installed at the factory level versus being done at the dealership level it is a no brainer.

Many dealerships including Honda, Ford and Chevrolet have no idea what they are doing when it comes to installations with respect to wheels, tires, CF wings, front splitters, rear seat delete, etc. and that includes swapping items out such as Cup 2 tires and OEM carbon fiber wheels which came on 4 of my GT350R's that I have owned over the years.

 

[RODSCIVIC]

I just want to point out that a lot of people who are buying this at $70k+ will make up what they paid in Market Adjustment by making You Tube videos. I dont blame them for spending this much on the CTR. I've been waiting to purchase CTR since 2017 all because I didn't want to pay Market Adjustment. The only real choice is to wait for a lightly used one and pay $5k above MSRP. It's insane but that's the way it is. It's probably cheaper to buy an EK9 CTR and really be exclusive.

Honda could easily solve this by flooding the Market with CTR's, 5-10 per dealer? Not going to happen.

 

[VarmintCong]

Two totally different things. This not a commodity or a company with s bad intangible valuation. Its a high quality and rare good that is strongly desired. As long as those dynamics hold so will pricing pressure. Look at the used FK8s in relation to the broader used market.

Yes if you think about the product. But if you think about the buyer, it’s the same. These huge ADMs are just bubble market phenomenon and will disappear fast as the bubble deflates and buyers no longer have money coming out of their wazoo. Price bubbles are deflating all over the place.

 

[VarmintCong]

Not sure the exact value of your car, but remember when you trade you do not have taxes on your trade value.

So for example, if your trade is valued at $35,000 you save $2,450 on taxes.

In my state it saves 6.2%. Dealers will try to undercut you by way more than that.

Easy way is to get a Carmax offer and then take it to the dealer if trading in.

 

[Tickle]

In my state it saves 6.2%. Dealers will try to undercut you by way more than that.

Easy way is to get a Carmax offer and then take it to the dealer if trading in.

Dealers don't always agree on trade value. Especially these days. Carmax and carvana can be way off what I think at times. In those circumstances I recommend selling it to them. It has nothing to do with undercutting.

Either way I should be able to explain why I arrived at my figure. You don't have to agree with it a deal that's the joy of competition.

 

[Toprarnen]

Given the conversation, this article might be of interest:
Sympathy for the dealer

Relevant quotes:
"the average Toyota dealer in the Boston region in the best years made between $2 million and $2.2 million profit. [In 2021] the average net profit was $6 million." David Rosenberg, president of DSR Motor Group

"Leaner inventory, even under 20 days' supply, comes with some benefits. Many of our dealers have expressed that they don't want to return to the old way of doing business with inflated inventories that can lead to cycles of unhealthy discounting and incentives. As a manufacturer, we need to focus on building the right models given the limited supply. We will pursue a simpler, more disciplined approach, one where we minimize inefficient trim levels and focus on our most profitable and in-demand models." -American Honda's Chris Naughton

"dealers don't need to carry historical inventory levels to have a robust business. There is no reason for us or our dealers to go back." -Eric Cunningham, vice president, sales, service, and marketing, for Cadillac North America

"The current five-to-10-day vehicle supply is a bit thin, but 60 to 90 days was entirely too fat. My opinion is that a 30-day supply is the sweet spot," -Erwin Raphael, a regional director of operations for Amazon Transportation Services and former COO of Genesis

 

[Neciovato]

By the end of Q1 2023 I doubt any dealers will be getting over 5K ADM. The market is about to adjust and production at that point will be high enough. Hold out and you’ll have one for a reasonable price!

I hope you are right man - I just feel like ‘enthusiast cars’ will still garner an ADM of some sort. I think there are enough people that would be more than willing to pay $2.5k over MSRP to get their hands on a FL5 at this point. I feel the normal car market will definitely adjust and I’m hoping that will affect some of the fun used cars out there (looking at you FK8 CTR) but I feel like the new ones such as the FL5 and the GRC will garner above MSRP (maybe not as much but still).

 

[AspecR]

 

[Neciovato]

Given the conversation, this article might be of interest:
Sympathy for the dealer

Relevant quotes:
"the average Toyota dealer in the Boston region in the best years made between $2 million and $2.2 million profit. [In 2021] the average net profit was $6 million." David Rosenberg, president of DSR Motor Group

"Leaner inventory, even under 20 days' supply, comes with some benefits. Many of our dealers have expressed that they don't want to return to the old way of doing business with inflated inventories that can lead to cycles of unhealthy discounting and incentives. As a manufacturer, we need to focus on building the right models given the limited supply. We will pursue a simpler, more disciplined approach, one where we minimize inefficient trim levels and focus on our most profitable and in-demand models." -American Honda's Chris Naughton

"dealers don't need to carry historical inventory levels to have a robust business. There is no reason for us or our dealers to go back." -Eric Cunningham, vice president, sales, service, and marketing, for Cadillac North America

"The current five-to-10-day vehicle supply is a bit thin, but 60 to 90 days was entirely too fat. My opinion is that a 30-day supply is the sweet spot," -Erwin Raphael, a regional director of operations for Amazon Transportation Services and former COO of Genesis

I get the reasoning for the dealer - but not for the manufacturer. I mean the manufacturer takes on the risk or new models (whether or not the public will like them) along with the R&D to make them etc. So if I’m a manufacturer - I want to make as many as possible bc I have the ‘sales force‘ to sell them. I get my $ from the dealer so them taking less means I as the manufacturer need to find a way to hit my profit margins - so that cost would be past onto the dealer and then onto the consumer with a lot higher MSRP prices.

I might have said this before but - the manufacturer isn’t helping the consumer when the dealer is marking up their vehicles - they are staying out of it so dealer greed is forcing consumers to either pay inflated prices or find another vehicle altogether. I know in the Z forums there are plenty of people who have decided to get something else bc of waiting on Nissan to get their sh!t together. I feel that the model the dealers are asking for won’t happen - bc where is the incentive for the manufacturer if production is cut so the dealer can make more money - can’t have it both ways and to be honest - the dealer is nothing more than a ‘middle man’. At that point - why not have manufacturers adopt the Tesla model and sell directly to the public and use a few dealers to ‘showcase‘ their cars and provide an experience where you build your car.

 

[Neciovato]

A used 2021 w 10k miles is priced at $52k in local market. Sure overall downward pressure in the used market may help but this is a niche car with production constraints nonetheless. Its likely the last ICE R. Lots that is unique to just this car that will command (and get) a premium in this market.

The longer the car sits - the more it will lose money. People will look at the car and want it - but financing it with interest rates that are continuing to go up along with lower trade in values - why would someone pay that much for a used car (that is over MSRP) and is the previous model - especially when this forum has shown people are getting OTD cost of around $50ish…at that point might as well get the better car.

As for the ‘last ICE mobile’ - until we have the infrastructure, I don’t see that being the case. Also throw in the average cost of an EV right now - it is priced quite high so now you are removing those that are lower income from having access as well. CA is trying to implement laws that will make EVs the future but I feel those laws will be pushed out further bc we don’t have the infrastructure to handle that many vehicles ‘on the grid’. Just my opinion though.

 

[Neciovato]

We on this forum are the worst examples of it however. We are stubborn car buyers. Less so than the normal Joe. If I don’t have an Accord on my lot. Joe will look at Camry, Sonata, 6, K5 or whatever else is out there in its class and make a buying decision based off availability.

We will all sit here and wait for the FL5 or say we are going to buy a Blackwing instead or an M2 meanwhile the other half of us will say fuck a Blackwing or M2 and want something different entirely.

So I have nothing but respect for the people who chose what they wanted all along and got the CTR. In the end their car will cost them less to maintain and will hold its value better than the other alternatives. This likely being the better $ decision anyway. Oh and they are enjoying their cars.

THIS literally made me LOL’d - bc you are so right. We all talk about ‘well, hell I’ll get XYZ instead‘ but the reality is - we all want a FL5 else we wouldn’t be on this forum. Sure - other alternatives are there but like you said - the maintenance compared to the Honda are completely different. And - if you can afford it - then it is your biz as to how much you are willing to pay. I feel this vehicle even without a pandemic would have ADM (the CTR prior to this one did) - the question was NOT if ADM would exist - but how much. And for a lot of people - maybe they aren’t willing to pay $10k over but….how about $5k or $2.5k. Thing is - it’s easy to sit here and judge but if you got that call and was told ‘everyone else is doing $10k over - we’ll sell for $5k’….I think a lot of us would get it bc of the supply and demand issues and we all know the MSRP of this vehicle will be higher anyway next year.

Anyway - defintely agree with your post.

 

[daazn]

THIS literally made me LOL’d - bc you are so right. We all talk about ‘well, hell I’ll get XYZ instead‘ but the reality is - we all want a FL5 else we wouldn’t be on this forum. Sure - other alternatives are there but like you said - the maintenance compared to the Honda are completely different. And - if you can afford it - then it is your biz as to how much you are willing to pay. I feel this vehicle even without a pandemic would have ADM (the CTR prior to this one did) - the question was NOT if ADM would exist - but how much. And for a lot of people - maybe they aren’t willing to pay $10k over but….how about $5k or $2.5k. Thing is - it’s easy to sit here and judge but if you got that call and was told ‘everyone else is doing $10k over - we’ll sell for $5k’….I think a lot of us would get it bc of the supply and demand issues and we all know the MSRP of this vehicle will be higher anyway next year.

Anyway - defintely agree with your post.

It's true. I was considering the manual supra as well for "similar" pricing but it also carries a markup and will come out to be more expensive after tax and all. It's also less practical for me since I already have a two seater. The M cars will also carry more expensive maintenance like you mentioned.

 

[mbaapk]

The longer the car sits - the more it will lose money. People will look at the car and want it - but financing it with interest rates that are continuing to go up along with lower trade in values - why would someone pay that much for a used car (that is over MSRP) and is the previous model - especially when this forum has shown people are getting OTD cost of around $50ish…at that point might as well get the better car.

As for the ‘last ICE mobile’ - until we have the infrastructure, I don’t see that being the case. Also throw in the average cost of an EV right now - it is priced quite high so now you are removing those that are lower income from having access as well. CA is trying to implement laws that will make EVs the future but I feel those laws will be pushed out further bc we don’t have the infrastructure to handle that many vehicles ‘on the grid’. Just my opinion though.

This one wont depreciate like the others. You are missing the point.

 

[Neciovato]

This one wont depreciate like the others. You are missing the point.

I don’t think I’m missing the point - I feel like everyone on this forum KNOWS the CTR will hold its value. The problem is that you are using a $50k USED CTR as an example - when in reality - due to interest rates going up, the new gen out (which I think most would agree will be the better car), trade in values going down and no more govt money to throw around - unless one is a complete idiot - that car doesn’t sell for close to that amount.

As far as niche vehicles - Honda is the only one to produce them - there are plenty of niche vehicles across all brands. And if we go into a recession - we will see price of vehicles go down even harder. The thing is - neither you nor I know for sure - we are just speculating - plain and simple so I guess we’ll see how values are after we get back to a ‘normal‘ society.

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