Fraternal Twins Comparison: 2024 Integra Type S vs. 2023 Civic Type R -- Performance Tested

[TypeRD]

@TW00Si Exactly! I think the Civic platform is probably considered an intermediate sized car now and no longer a compact. Maybe the 10th gen is when it happened? I feel like the 8th and 9th gen were likely still considered compacts. By today’s standards your ‘99 Civic DX might almost fall into the sub-compact category. LOL!

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[TDC50]

Well... that extra 6 inches would have prevented the car from ever sitting in my garage………

That’s what she said!

sorry, couldn’t resist

 

[optronix]

Here's the thing- none of it matters.

(hot take incoming)

So many enthusiasts clamor on about the good ol' days of tiny cars, but other than the novelty of being able to pull the passenger door shut from the driver seat, what real benefit is there? They still fit on public roads, and for most normal people they still fit in the garage. Tire and suspension technology has advanced so much in the 10,15, 20 years since this "golden age" of magic small cars that size and weight are virtually irrelevant, and the more I think about it, the more irritated I get when people try to bring this up as some kind of deficit we have to deal with in modern cars...

I too thought the dimensions would be an issue with my DE5 when I first got it, as I was coming from a 718 (which in and of itself is a gargantuan car compared to old 911s...). I even thrashed a few cones in my first autocross and had a moment where I may have been a bit annoyed and perturbed. But imagine that- a few weeks later and I'm used to the car, and not a single cone was harmed at my last autocross. And I even outpaced most of the other "small" 997s, 986/7s, RX-8s and Miatas that were out there (finished 13th overall out of more than 60 at a PCA event with ~70% Porsches on the OEM PS4S...). Watching some of these old school cars people use as benchmarks go around an autocross course and get a pitiful time isn't as inspiring as some folks try to make it out to be. Most of them would either fall apart or piss everyone else off on a track without extensive modification too. I bring this up because yes, the FL5/DE5 gets a lot of shitposters on social media trashing the dimensions. I think no other cars suffer more than the G8x BMWs though... but even the E36/46 M3s that seem to set the standard are the only cars that could hope to stay together for a track session, and most if not all today are either clapped out shitboxes, priced far out of sanity's reach, or already built racecars so it doesn't even matter anyway.

All this to say that whatever the reason manufacturers are going this route (safety, storage, legroom, whatever)- it is what it is, and we're actually far better off than these "glory days" people go on about. I feel like the world would be a better place if people didn't seem to continually seek some reason to complain about something. These cars are plenty capable and at least from my perspective far more fun to drive once the rose-colored glasses are removed than any of these "legacy" cars that would disintegrate if they so much as rubbed the bumper of a god damned 3.5 ton Rivian...

To hell with them.

(That said give me an S13 or FD RX-7 any day......)

 

[ender_ong]

The FL5 parked next to my S2000 looks like a small crossover

at certain “unflattering” angles of the DE5, I’m slightly reminded of this bad boy right here. Saw one on the road today to work too

 

[TypeRD]

@optronix Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Maybe I need to add some detail.

For me it’s not even about having rose colored glasses for the 90’s sized cars and their dated performance. It’s about “right-sizing.” To me, the 8th and 9th gen Civics were about the right size for a compact (nearly intermediate) car. These cars are significantly larger than 90’s Civics, but felt like they had the right amount space for the type of car they are. Ergonomics are good, etc. They’re kind of the Goldilocks of sizing and fit (in my opinion).

I’m not at all upset my FL5 is big. Just saying it would be nice if it was maybe 5-7% smaller…while of course maintaining all the performance and safety that’s built-in today. If someone at Honda asked, “Do you want a slightly smaller car with less performance or a larger one with all the performance?” I’d choose the latter every time.

Hope this calms your irritation.

 

[optronix]

@optronix Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Maybe I need to add some detail.

For me it’s not even about having rose colored glasses for the 90’s sized cars and their dated performance. It’s about “right-sizing.” To me, the 8th and 9th gen Civics were about the right size for a compact (nearly intermediate) car. These cars are significantly larger than 90’s Civics, but felt like they had the right amount space for the type of car they are. Ergonomics are good, etc. They’re kind of the Goldilocks of sizing and fit (in my opinion).

I’m not at all upset my FL5 is big. Just saying it would be nice if it was maybe 5-7% smaller…while of course maintaining all the performance and safety that’s built-in today. If someone at Honda asked, “Do you want a slightly smaller car with less performance or a larger one with all the performance?” I’d choose the latter every time.

Hope this calms your irritation.

My irritation is derived from many YouTube and FB posts, you are just fine lol.

 

[TypeRD]

Yeah…I totally feel you. Like how many times do people have to play the same damn song over and over? If you want an old car, go buy an old car!!! Am I right?! @optronix

Thinking about it more, my assessment of cars being bigger because of SUV’s actually makes a ton of sense, due to shared platforms. SUV’s keep getting bigger, so cars have to follow suit.

 

[CTR39322]

I’m just happy that’s 2023 and Honda is making FWD fun to drive, capable manual transmission cars.

 

[TDC50]

Nice red DE5 CTR39322!

 

[TDC50]

at certain “unflattering” angles of the DE5, I’m slightly reminded of this bad boy right here. Saw one on the road today to work too

DE5 in the top pic looks great!

 

[ender_ong]

DE5 in the top pic looks great!

Thanks! Was the night before maiden track day, hence FL5 forged wheels for track duty

 

[CTR39322]

Nice red DE5 CTR39322!

Thanks!

 

[VarmintCong]

Here's the thing- none of it matters.

(hot take incoming)

So many enthusiasts clamor on about the good ol' days of tiny cars, but other than the novelty of being able to pull the passenger door shut from the driver seat, what real benefit is there? They still fit on public roads, and for most normal people they still fit in the garage. Tire and suspension technology has advanced so much in the 10,15, 20 years since this "golden age" of magic small cars that size and weight are virtually irrelevant, and the more I think about it, the more irritated I get when people try to bring this up as some kind of deficit we have to deal with in modern cars...

I too thought the dimensions would be an issue with my DE5 when I first got it, as I was coming from a 718 (which in and of itself is a gargantuan car compared to old 911s...). I even thrashed a few cones in my first autocross and had a moment where I may have been a bit annoyed and perturbed. But imagine that- a few weeks later and I'm used to the car, and not a single cone was harmed at my last autocross. And I even outpaced most of the other "small" 997s, 986/7s, RX-8s and Miatas that were out there (finished 13th overall out of more than 60 at a PCA event with ~70% Porsches on the OEM PS4S...). Watching some of these old school cars people use as benchmarks go around an autocross course and get a pitiful time isn't as inspiring as some folks try to make it out to be. Most of them would either fall apart or piss everyone else off on a track without extensive modification too. I bring this up because yes, the FL5/DE5 gets a lot of shitposters on social media trashing the dimensions. I think no other cars suffer more than the G8x BMWs though... but even the E36/46 M3s that seem to set the standard are the only cars that could hope to stay together for a track session, and most if not all today are either clapped out shitboxes, priced far out of sanity's reach, or already built racecars so it doesn't even matter anyway.

All this to say that whatever the reason manufacturers are going this route (safety, storage, legroom, whatever)- it is what it is, and we're actually far better off than these "glory days" people go on about. I feel like the world would be a better place if people didn't seem to continually seek some reason to complain about something. These cars are plenty capable and at least from my perspective far more fun to drive once the rose-colored glasses are removed than any of these "legacy" cars that would disintegrate if they so much as rubbed the bumper of a god damned 3.5 ton Rivian...

To hell with them.

(That said give me an S13 or FD RX-7 any day......)

I think weight matters more than size, which is why the Civics are still fun to drive despite growing very large. They look large and feel large parking, but on the road they don't really feel big. Here in Taiwan the Focus is far better than a Civic sedan for parking and navigating narrow roads, being a foot shorter. In the US it wouldn't matter much.

Modern BMWs however feel huge to me, to the point I don't find them fun to drive at all.

Yeah, an old car doesn't do well on autoX times, but they feel so much more involving to drive. Like driving a real car, while most modern cars are as involving as driving with an XBox controller.

 

[TypeRD]

Really good take @VarmintCong
agree. Because the FL5 is so nimble and responsive, it doesn’t FEEL as big as its physical size suggests. It’s true I really only notice how large it is when parking or when driving into a narrow space (like a drive-thru). I’m still getting used to judging how close or far I am when approaching curbs too, though I haven’t scraped anything other than the plastic air dam…which is bound to get scuffed now and then anyway.

 

[1971Camaro]

Really good take @VarmintCong
agree. Because the FL5 is so nimble and responsive, it doesn’t FEEL as big as its physical size suggests. It’s true I really only notice how large it is when parking or when driving into a narrow space (like a drive-thru). I’m still getting used to judging how close or far I am when approaching curbs too, though I haven’t scraped anything other than the plastic air dam…which is bound to get scuffed now and then anyway.

Regardless of the size of the car... part of the issue for judging curbs is because we sit so low in the
cabin. I love feeling immersed in it, but we don't have as good an overview of the terrain around us.

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