Best way to stop the body roll

[CW_FL5]

I fully understand your observations on using overly stiff sway bar settings (RV6 comes to mind in middle and stiff hole setup). I am looking for a slight 10-15% increase in stiffness to aid in lower speed tight corner induced push on turns. A Whiteline 22mm rear bar in the softest setting should help without creating other undesirable issues.

Don't get me wrong, I love this car, just looking for a slight tweak to address my driving situations.

I also have a DSC that I'll be installing next month, so I should be able to dial in the overall setup.....can't wait for the snow to be gone.

I fully understand your observations on using overly stiff sway bar settings (RV6 comes to mind in middle and stiff hole setup). I am looking for a slight 10-15% increase in stiffness to aid in lower speed tight corner induced push on turns. A Whiteline 22mm rear bar in the softest setting should help without creating other undesirable issues.

Don't get me wrong, I love this car, just looking for a slight tweak to address my driving situations.

I also have a DSC that I'll be installing next month, so I should be able to dial in the overall setup.....can't wait for the snow to be gone.

I just got my dsc controller. Was trying to find a non mechanical way to reduce the front end hop/roll in the front. But unless I have alignment issues or my dsc controller is setup wrong for a stock type r lol. It slightly reduced the hop/roll. It’s great for bumps and getting the smoothness your expecting but. The cornering it doesn’t do much. I’m debating on springs to help with hoppiness of the front when cornering.

Sponsored

 

[optronix]

There's not a single part to throw at the problem that will fully resolve anything. I'm starting to go down this rabbit hole now as well, and I'm finding that even if you know what you're doing, it's like trying to catch a greased pig; with each part you want to replace, you have to backtrack with corrective measures because the overall suspension geometry is designed to work together. You really do need an engineering degree AND a whole lot of trial and error to actually improve on what Honda engineers have blessed us with.

The best approach? Change nothing. This car's chassis is better than anything else remotely close to its price point. If you're truly disappointed in it, then start saving for a McLaren. Full stop.

If you can't accept that, start lobbying Whiteline, Hardrace, RV6 etc. because as things sit right now there are still massive gaping holes in the market for suspension components for this platform.

If I had to start over again I'd start with camber. That part alone should also help the body roll problem because it extends the contact patch on the outside tire- which is literally the only thing actually touching the ground so theoretically would carry the most weight from a grip perspective. Literally and figuratively.

Also tires.

 

[CW_FL5]

There's not a single part to throw at the problem that will fully resolve anything. I'm starting to go down this rabbit hole now as well, and I'm finding that even if you know what you're doing, it's like trying to catch a greased pig; with each part you want to replace, you have to backtrack with corrective measures because the overall suspension geometry is designed to work together. You really do need an engineering degree AND a whole lot of trial and error to actually improve on what Honda engineers have blessed us with.

The best approach? Change nothing. This car's chassis is better than anything else remotely close to its price point. If you're truly disappointed in it, then start saving for a McLaren. Full stop.

If you can't accept that, start lobbying Whiteline, Hardrace, RV6 etc. because as things sit right now there are still massive gaping holes in the market for suspension components for this platform.

If I had to start over again I'd start with camber. That part alone should also help the body roll problem because it extends the contact patch on the outside tire- which is literally the only thing actually touching the ground so theoretically would carry the most weight from a grip perspective. Literally and figuratively.

Also tires.

This is true. Overall it’s great! Here in Texas I’m able to take a lot of sweepers at 100+ lol. Most tracks you don’t see that. I can see where most are not seeing the issue. Camber is probably the biggest concern. I’ve been wanting to just do a check on the issue. But in the end it’s like do I want to increase to wear considerable and start changing parts like you mentioned. It’s a rabbit hole for sure. Appreciate the input!

 

[optronix]

This is true. Overall it’s great! Here in Texas I’m able to take a lot of sweepers at 100+ lol. Most tracks you don’t see that. I can see where most are not seeing the issue. Camber is probably the biggest concern. I’ve been wanting to just do a check on the issue. But in the end it’s like do I want to increase to wear considerable and start changing parts like you mentioned. It’s a rabbit hole for sure. Appreciate the input!

So the tire wear thing- if you stay within a reasonable range and aren't driving extremely aggressively then tire wear won't be a substantial consideration. I won't promise you the tires will last AS LONG, but it's not like you'll be blazing through tires as long as your driving habits don't include things that typically accelerate tire wear.

I can tell you anecdotally what not to do if that's a concern. Don't go balls-to-the-wall at -3.5 degrees. And what do I mean by "extremely aggressive" driving? I've said it before- my use case is a little different than most others. I'm not a nationals-level competitive autocross driver, but I've been doing this for a while now and have just gotten to a point where I've grown beyond the limits of summer tires, so I will destroy a set of PS4S in a single session. Camber or no camber. It's tough to really articulate this- but if you don't routinely autocross or do DEs and the like, pace dictates a LOT of how long your wear items last. That doesn't (shouldn't) really translate to the street. Unless you drive like The Transporter or some shit. I killed 5 tires last season (4 were summer tires) and only did a handful of events. But I switched to all seasons in November, put about 7k miles or so on them since the camber change (around 15k total), and they still don't show any sign of wear at all, let alone excessive, uneven wear. It's the autocross that murders the tires.

So stay sub -3 and you'll be fine, -2.5 is probably optimal. If you had to only do one mod, that is the "safest" IMHA. Rear sway bar should be fine too, in fact that's probably the best "entry-level" suspension configuration for this platform. (Front sway would be better from a physics perspective but front sway is a fucking chore to swap out).

And actually thinking about it- adding camber and a rear sway bar would probably introduce more oversteer than most people could reasonably need, especially on summer tires or god forbid all seasons. It probably wouldn't make sense to do this on an exclusively street-driven car at all.

Another thought- some would argue lower offset wheels could contribute to helping with the "body roll", and theoretically I don't think I could disagree. But don't expect much. And then there's all the chat about scrub radius and torque steer... to my experience 15mm or so difference doesn't really change much that anyone could actually perceive behind the wheel, "good" or "bad". YMMV.

It's lowering is what causes the greatest disruption to the suspension geometry.

 

[lflouie]

So the tire wear thing- if you stay within a reasonable range and aren't driving extremely aggressively then tire wear won't be a substantial consideration. I won't promise you the tires will last AS LONG, but it's not like you'll be blazing through tires as long as your driving habits don't include things that typically accelerate tire wear.

I can tell you anecdotally what not to do if that's a concern. Don't go balls-to-the-wall at -3.5 degrees. And what do I mean by "extremely aggressive" driving? I've said it before- my use case is a little different than most others. I'm not a nationals-level competitive autocross driver, but I've been doing this for a while now and have just gotten to a point where I've grown beyond the limits of summer tires, so I will destroy a set of PS4S in a single session. Camber or no camber. It's tough to really articulate this- but if you don't routinely autocross or do DEs and the like, pace dictates a LOT of how long your wear items last. That doesn't (shouldn't) really translate to the street. Unless you drive like The Transporter or some shit. I killed 5 tires last season (4 were summer tires) and only did a handful of events. But I switched to all seasons in November, put about 7k miles or so on them since the camber change (around 15k total), and they still don't show any sign of wear at all, let alone excessive, uneven wear. It's the autocross that murders the tires.

So stay sub -3 and you'll be fine, -2.5 is probably optimal. If you had to only do one mod, that is the "safest" IMHA. Rear sway bar should be fine too, in fact that's probably the best "entry-level" suspension configuration for this platform. (Front sway would be better from a physics perspective but front sway is a fucking chore to swap out).

And actually thinking about it- adding camber and a rear sway bar would probably introduce more oversteer than most people could reasonably need, especially on summer tires or god forbid all seasons. It probably wouldn't make sense to do this on an exclusively street-driven car at all.

Another thought- some would argue lower offset wheels could contribute to helping with the "body roll", and theoretically I don't think I could disagree. But don't expect much. And then there's all the chat about scrub radius and torque steer... to my experience 15mm or so difference doesn't really change much that anyone could actually perceive behind the wheel, "good" or "bad". YMMV.

It's lowering is what causes the greatest disruption to the suspension geometry.

I couldn't agree more with this assessment on the current CTR/ITS chassis. The key point comes down to what you want from your car and how do you drive.

I will repeat the comments made earlier...this is an incredibly well designed and executed FWD platform that is very versatile and competent as delivered. The fact that both variations use the same basic set-up with basically damper programming difference yet can be a track oriented car or a sport sedan underscores the exceptional goodness of the car.

If your driving use is predominately a weekend toy (limited daily driving) and includes a preference for twisty roads mixed with an assertive driving style on the street, simply matching which ever oem suspension module characteristics you prefer (or adding a DSC) can do wonders for "dialing-in" and matching the overall handling characteristics you desire.....all for less than $300 -$800 and 15 mins of your time. Where else can you find a pr of cars that are that user friendly and adaptable?

While I don't autocross or compete the personal desire (affliction -OCD) for perfection has always led me to " adjust" my cars....especially chassis dynamics. For my driving that meant my engineering orientation led me to modify the factory baseline setups.

As I evaluated and researched both of these cars I came to the conclusion that if I drove them and liked how they handled, then I really shouldn't attempt to re-engineer and modify the suspension bc it would be too difficult, costly and could be futile. My first drive in both cars sealed my fate...both have incredibly capable well-matched components, well engineered chassis, suspensions, tires, and steering.

Specific conventional suspension changes can tweak some of their characteristics without introducing other compromises, but if too much is done it leads to further changes thus cascading into even more changes. Been there, done that on other platforms.

IMO, the overall design and interdependence of the chassis elements in these cars means that changes and optimization within limits are really the best approach for "improving or personalizing" the car and for non- competition use should be limited to tires, alignment (extending camber, toe, height limits), minor changes to roll transfer rates (sway bars), and suspension programming.

As soon as radical changes to ride height, camber or wheel offsets are added the inherent engineering becomes compromised.

Agree that tire wear is affected by many of these alterations and yes it it is greatly affected by scrub radius. When the suspension mechanics and setup is altered the load on the tires increases the lateral load across the surface of the tire ( like a shearing force). So as the car is lowered (less weight transfer), camber increased and wheel offset decreased (increased scrub radius), swaybar stiffness increased (roll resistance) all combine to wear out tires much much faster for a very modest amount of real performance gain. Most enthusiasts perceive an overall performance when making these types mods...but they usually don't drive at the limits and mostly get the impression of a much improved tightness or responsiveness "feels" at lower speeds. However much of those gains are illusionary and basically overwork (wear) the tires due to greater lateral loading and scrub across the surface of the tread surface.

Personally for my type of driving a good alignment with the front toe near zero, front camber near -2.0 degrees, tire pressures +2 to 3 lbs, at stock ride height, wheel offset and tires, DSC (as received programing) is very very close to an ideal setup. The only area I wish to adjust is slightly reducing body roll at higher cornering speeds and a need for more mechanical grip at low speed hair pin turning where I want more front end grip.

Have I said how much I like this chassis as delivered?

Fully concur that this chassis needs very little help for non-competion driving, so save your time money and effort and enjoy this future classic.

 

[m3bs]

As the saying goes, “Can’t fix it if it ain’t broke!”

After seeing this thread title I went back and watched a track video where I was chasing a friend in a CTR around Roebling Road in my GT4. Steady state cornering at 1.2 G on Goodyear SC3R with virtually no body roll. I was impressed enough that I bought the car from him and then sold the GT4. I miss the sound of the flat six with open headers, but that’s about it.

 

[optronix]

As the saying goes, “Can’t fix it if it ain’t broke!”

After seeing this thread title I went back and watched a track video where I was chasing a friend in a CTR around Roebling Road in my GT4. Steady state cornering at 1.2 G on Goodyear SC3R with virtually no body roll. I was impressed enough that I bought the car from him and then sold the GT4. I miss the sound of the flat six with open headers, but that’s about it.

I followed a similar path, but from a series of Boxster GTS (and one 911). I've said it many times- this platform can't really be argued to be better than any modern Porsche sports car... but I don't miss them nearly as much as I thought I would.

 

[B16B]

I just got my dsc controller. Was trying to find a non mechanical way to reduce the front end hop/roll in the front. But unless I have alignment issues or my dsc controller is setup wrong for a stock type r lol. It slightly reduced the hop/roll. It’s great for bumps and getting the smoothness your expecting but. The cornering it doesn’t do much. I’m debating on springs to help with hoppiness of the front when cornering.

The only thing that completely eliminated the hop on my FL5 was the Spoon rigid collars and the Cobb rear motor mount. I'm also tuned on Cobb so it has slightly more power over stock.

 

[CW_FL5]

The only thing that completely eliminated the hop on my FL5 was the Spoon rigid collars and the Cobb rear motor mount. I'm also tuned on Cobb so it has slightly more power over stock.

Did the rigid collars put the subframe more in alignment? I see where you’re coming from and how it could help. I also have done the rmm. Would be nice to get the vibrations down with the colllars. It’s just crazy I can take a mildly slow corner perfect like 50-60 but a swelled at 80-100 it wants to pogo and flop like a fish out the water lol.
I’ve done the rigid collars on my s2k but granted that was like 8 years ago and it had at least 100k miles on it. Subframe did go back into alignment and it track straight when under power.

 

[Jack90210]

I couldn't agree more with this assessment on the current CTR/ITS chassis. The key point comes down to what you want from your car and how do you drive.

I will repeat the comments made earlier...this is an incredibly well designed and executed FWD platform that is very versatile and competent as delivered. The fact that both variations use the same basic set-up with basically damper programming difference yet can be a track oriented car or a sport sedan underscores the exceptional goodness of the car.

If your driving use is predominately a weekend toy (limited daily driving) and includes a preference for twisty roads mixed with an assertive driving style on the street, simply matching which ever oem suspension module characteristics you prefer (or adding a DSC) can do wonders for "dialing-in" and matching the overall handling characteristics you desire.....all for less than $300 -$800 and 15 mins of your time. Where else can you find a pr of cars that are that user friendly and adaptable?

While I don't autocross or compete the personal desire (affiction -OCD) for perfection has always led me to " adjust" my cars....especially chassis dynamics. For my driving that meant my engineering orientation led me to modify the factory baseline setups.

As I evaluated and researched both of these cars I came to the conclusion that if I drove them and liked how they handled, then I really shouldn't attempt to re-engineer and modify the suspension bc it would be too difficult, costly and could be futile. My first drive in both cars sealed my fate...both have incredibly capable well-matched components, well engineered chassis, suspensions, tires, and steering.

Specific conventional suspension changes can tweak some of their characteristics without introducing other compromises, but if too much is done it leads to further changes thus cascading into even more changes. Been there, done that on other platforms.

IMO, the overall design and interdependence of the chassis elements in these cars means that changes and optimization within limits are really the best approach for "improving or personalizing" the car and for non- competition use should be limited to tires, alignment (extending camber, toe, height limits), minor changes to roll transfer rates (sway bars), and suspension programming.

As soon as radical changes to ride height, camber or wheel offsets are added the inherent engineering becomes compromised.

Agree that tire wear is affected by many of these alterations and yes it it is greatly affected by scrub radius. When the suspension mechanics and setup is altered the load on the tires increases the lateral load across the surface of the tire ( like a shearing force). So as the car is lowered (less weight transfer), camber increased and wheel offset decreased (increased scrub radius), swaybar stiffness increased (roll resistance) all combine to wear out tires much much faster for a very modest amount of real performance gain. Most enthusiasts perceive an overall performance when making these types mods...but they usually don't drive at the limits and mostly get the impression of a much improved tightness or responsiveness "feels" at lower speeds. However much of those gains are illusionary and basically overwork (wear) the tires due to greater lateral loading and scrub across the surface of the tread surface.

Personally for my type of driving a good alignment with the front toe near zero, front camber near -2.0 degrees, tire pressures +2 to 3 lbs, at stock ride height, wheel offset and tires, DSC (as received programing) is very very close to an ideal setup. The only area I wish to adjust is slightly reducing body roll at higher cornering speeds and a need for more mechanical grip at low speed hair pin turning where I want more front end grip.

Have I said how much I like this chassis as delivered?

Fully concur that this chassis needs very little help for non-competion driving, so save your time money and effort and enjoy this future classic.

This post should be a sticky somewhere. Well done.

 

[B16B]

Did the rigid collars put the subframe more in alignment? I see where you’re coming from and how it could help. I also have done the rmm. Would be nice to get the vibrations down with the colllars. It’s just crazy I can take a mildly slow corner perfect like 50-60 but a swelled at 80-100 it wants to pogo and flop like a fish out the water lol.
I’ve done the rigid collars on my s2k but granted that was like 8 years ago and it had at least 100k miles on it. Subframe did go back into alignment and it track straight when under power.

Yes and the rear was more out of center than the front. All and all I recommend the Rigid collars. Just order them from Black Hawk Japan.

Sponsored