DSC suspension controller feedback/experience on a stock CTR FL5

[Maya@DSC]

Just generally glad to finally be here!

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[MooMoo]

FWIW while on the topic of sway bars- but first a disclaimer: DSC is local to me and I took my car there to use as a tuning benchmark for the baseline tune on a lowered suspension you all would get if you ordered a DSC now (although they've probably revised it since, honestly...).

In any case, while there I had a great chat with Tom, not sure of his role but as far as I'm concerned he's the product manager for the DSC controller. He is an elite expert on suspension, and that's another component you get when you buy a DSC- it comes with a baseline tune that is dialed in by a team of true experts. But even better than that- they can assist with helping you tune the unit to your individual preferences. He actually was telling me about how he had just worked with an FL5 owner in developing a custom DSC tune that essentially equated to a "virtual sway bar" by tweaking the dynamic damping on the rear only to account for conditions that would benefit from increased oversteer.

If that's something any of you is interested in, I suggest reaching out to Tom.

There's also even a use case for folks going to non-adjustable coilovers, utilizing the DSC controller as a more effective ADS delete mechanism than the "plug in" units you'd get from Ohlins or similar.

Very trick piece of kit. Even for a "refined" DE5.

Curious to what springs you have

 

[optronix]

Curious to what springs you have

Eibach Pro-kit.

 

[zumbooruk]

Swaybars are basically acting as a cornering spring...they only apply force when the car is not going straight. They are intended to act as a " final tweak" balancing out wheel spring rates and load transfer during turning. They will affect turn-in feel bc they increase the rate of load transfer from front to rear, with the majority of the transfer going to the opposite front wheel. This " preloads" the outside front wheel as you turn into the corner...making the car more responsive to steering wheel inputs and increasing outside front tire grip ( reduces push).

Choosing a swaybar is all about balancing the car based on the current suspension, primary use and application ( road racing, HPDE, autocross, spirited street, daily driver, etc.). It is also dependent on driving style, personal preferences and willingness to trade-off ride quality for cornering grip (cornering speed).

Before selecting a swaybar you'll need to determine your goals and personal preferences, what youre trying to "fix," as well as what you don't want.( level of ride harshness)

First of all, today's cars, especially the CTR, have very capable electronic adaptive suspensions with capabilities and algorythms that make them far more adaptive and sophisticated than ever. For example they can stiffen one or more shock's damping to aid cornering for different cornering speeds, braking levels and G- forces....something that traditional mechanical setups can not do.

With that said, aftermarket spring choices, wheel offsets, tire choice (and pressures), alignments, as well as swaybars determine the overall "suspension characteristics" and overall nature of the car.

My experience with well setup oem systems, the development work and the engineers emphasis are the baseline that a driver needs to understand and analyze for their particular intended use. What works for me may not work for you...or atleast fail to met your expectations. If lap times on a road racing track is your goal, then setup the car accordingly, if not then define the use and goals and set out to meet a set of objectives.

Well after that philosopical guidance let's get back to why a Whiteline vs RV6. If I was setting up a track car the RV6 would be a contender bc it has one of the stiffest settings (rating) of the commonly available bars and has a wide range of setting/choice options....perfect for dialing in the car for various tracks and track conditions, and when matched to the other changes that would be made to a "track car" suspension package. Remember all of the parts of a suspension are part of a system...change one and the others may or may not be ideal.

The Whiteline is at the opposite end of the spectrum with modest stiffness increases and adjustments. Bc the CTR factory oem suspension (and module tuning) are already very responsive and set to the stiffer side of ride quality and with virtually no push, adding any swaybar stiffness for non-race purposes should be done to address a specific issue or need. Bigger(stiffer) is not necessarily better.

In my case, I'm considering a Whiteline 22mm rear bar to aid in turn-in feel and low speed steering response for driving on tight hairpin turns on mountain roads. It is only ~ 15 to 30% stiffer than stock so it shouldn't compromise the overall goodnesd of the DSC tuning.

I find that many enthusiasts select swaybars that are too thick (racing oriented) and overly and unnecessarily stiff. They will tighten up steering responsiveness at any speed, but introduce other trade-offs.

If this is your first foray into suspension tuning the good news is the CTR needs very little help for performance oriented enthusiasts or for limited track use. In my case I feel the DSC dials in a better balance btwn race use and aggressive street by tuning the suspension via the module, and I'm only considering a Whiteline for my specific mountain carving needs at low speeds....otherwise I like the DSC as a plug and play unit and possibly the Whiteline bar as a tweak on my otherwise stock CTR.

If you are looking for an improved overall suspension upgrade and ride quality I would recommend an off-the-shelf DSC. Remember that a rear swaybar including adjustable end links will cost around $500 to $600 and requires installation. A DSC is a 15 min install in the driveway, and will greatly enhance the overall suspension even for competition, Something to consider, especially if you are going to routinely daily drive your CTR, it costs $999, far less than doing multiple suspension upgrades and experimenting. When you sell your CTR, just replace with the oem module and you'll get most of your DSC investment back.

Since you already have the DSC. if you want more enhancement try contacting them for a possible programming tweak to address any short coming.

Which ever direction you choose, enjoy your CTR and your DSC for what they are......basically 90% of a GT3 for 20% of the cost.

Thank you!

I should probably put on more miles on my DSC before considering more suspension mods, such as swaybar, stiffening plate, etc. though I'll probably never get lowering springs since as is I scrape the front of the car coming out of my driveway into the street.

I'll be the first to admit that I drive like an ape, and I am not a very attuned driver, yet even I can feel the magic of the DSC, but I might not even be able to tell the difference with a stiffer swaybar...

I do not intend to track or race the car. mostly street and freeway driving, but the road to my neighborhood has a few curves that I'll never admit to driving faster than 80 mph on a short straight between two curves.

 

[lflouie]

Thank you!

I should probably put on more miles on my DSC before considering more suspension mods, such as swaybar, stiffening plate, etc. though I'll probably never get lowering springs since as is I scrape the front of the car coming out of my driveway into the street.

I'll be the first to admit that I drive like an ape, and I am not a very attuned driver, yet even I can feel the magic of the DSC, but I might not even be able to tell the difference with a stiffer swaybar...

I do not intend to track or race the car. mostly street and freeway driving, but the road to my neighborhood has a few curves that I'll never admit to driving faster than 80 mph on a short straight between two curves.

Regarding your comment on "stiffening plates" with the CTR, I don't think you'll need any. With the attention Honda applied to the CTR stiffness to the body I don't foresee the need of any...unless you are going full attack track use.

Bc the front suspension mounts so close to the firewall, the already stiffened chassis is extremely taut virtually negating need for a front tower brace. If there was any tightening you might want to be considering and are willing to accept increase NVH, could be stiffer bushings at key points of the suspension/body connections. I personally don't think I'd ever need them, but if you're looking to eliminate potential sources of flexing that would most likely be the locations.

 

[Jack90210]

For what it's worth, I feel more "squish" (delayed lateral/yaw response) during quick transitions in the *rear* of the car than I feel from the front. Planning on starting with a Cusco rear brace, and likely adding Spoon hard-rubber bushings or similar.

Back on point, though, I'll install the DSC controller this weekend. Really looking forward to seeing how it makes the car feel.

 

[lflouie]

For what it's worth, I feel more "squish" (delayed lateral/yaw response) during quick transitions in the *rear* of the car than I feel from the front. Planning on starting with a Cusco rear brace, and likely adding Spoon hard-rubber bushings or similar.

Back on point, though, I'll install the DSC controller this weekend. Really looking forward to seeing how it makes the car feel.

Not sure I understand your technical term "squish". Are you referring to a laziness in cornering including turn-in feel when in Comfort suspension setting on stock set-up]?

 

[Jack90210]

Not sure I understand your technical term "squish". Are you referring to a laziness in cornering including turn-in feel when in Comfort suspension setting on stock set-up]?

I'm referring to the sensation that the rear end is slower to respond to change in lateral direction due to what feels (to me) like excessive side-to-side motion, as if bushings were compressing too much, or the rear body were flexing, etc. It's not the kind of shift in suspension load that a swaybar can help alleviate, I don't think.

This is in response to the above comments regarding the need or lack of need for chassis bracing on the FL5 platform.

 

[lflouie]

I'm referring to the sensation that the rear end is slower to respond to change in lateral direction due to what feels (to me) like excessive side-to-side motion, as if bushings were compressing too much, or the rear body were flexing, etc. It's not the kind of shift in suspension load that a swaybar can help alleviate, I don't think.

This is in response to the above comments regarding the need or lack of need for chassis bracing on the FL5 platform.

Don't know your experience with swaybar or bracing effects on chassis dynamics but the fundamental issue of what I believe you are described is a weight transfer issue, or said differently a delay in weight transfer, regardless of whether it is caused by bracing or a swaybar.

In my opinion the overall idea of chassis stiffness is to ensure that energy/weight is effectively transfered quickly to the tires needing the most grip at the right time.

I actually feel that you are describing exactly what I am considering doing to improve turn-in responsiveness and to create a more responsive cornering feel.....and that is by increasing the rear swaybar stiffness.

If you can imagine an extreme example of a mid-70s Cadillac and its overly lax suspension control that rolled and sloshed around corners. The backend felt lethargic and the front end pushed and rolled over the outer tire when cornering. The fundamental issue was a suspension purposely designed soft for ride quality......the softness delayed transferring weight to the front wheels until you were 1/2 way around the corner and the rear was excessively transferring weight to the outer rear wheel but a very slow rate, making the car feel lifeless....and uncontrollable.

The key for a more lively rear end is to rebalance the weight transfer by shifting more weight onto the front outer cornering wheel more quickly and at the same time resisting the rear axle side to side weight transfer by creating more slip....ie rear responsiveness. What comes to mind is the oversteer characteristics of a front engine rear drive car.

There are numerous ways and contributing factors to accomplish both the front to rear and side to side rear axle weight control including damping and spring rates, ride height, alignment, tire choice,, bracing and swaybars to name the most common.

By increasing rear sway bar stiffness you will directly affect the amount and speed of weight transfer from the rear inside wheel to the front outside wheel and lessen the inside rear wheel weight transfer to the opposite rear wheel.....inducing better front outer wheel cornering grip and actually reducing the outside rear wheel grip, thus effectively enhancing the rotation of the car and improving the rear liveliness.

I find that a stock CTR has very good overall cornering responsiveness (even in comfort suspension setting) and exceptional chassis stiffness. When I installed the DSC I noticed a decline in cornering responsiveness in comfort (suspension) setting stiffness (softer, more roll) particularly at low speeds. So the DSC was softening the damping in the corresponding dampers to improve ride, but in doing so it reduced the overall stiffness and roll control. However, as I drove the car faster in the same suspension setting and cornered harder the damping stiffened and the cornering control improved...clearly that is the adaptive suspension maps adjusting the dampers.

In my case my driving includes supstancial braking and turning into low speed hairpin turns which means in this particular turning situation the DSC may not be ideally tuned for this low speed , substantial steering angle position, and damper compression....but in almost all other situations works very well.

There are atleast 2 ways I believe that this could be addressed on a stock CTR using a DSC: 1) reprogramming the DSC, 2) or mechanically by stiffening the rear sway bar to regain more mechanical grip at the front while simultaneously decreasing rear axle grip using the std DSC program....or a combination of both.

I'm not at all versed in electronically tuning a suspension system, but pretty familiar with traditional suspension setups especially for the areas I drive. I'm planning on adding a rear sway bar upgrade to regain the low speed tight corner weight transfer while retaining the overall effectiveness of the DSC....a workaround.

You might want to atleast consider a rear bar upgrade if you aren't into reprogramming and electronically tuning dampers....it could address the concerns you have expressed over the liveliness and responsiveness of the car with or without a DSC.

 

[Jack90210]

Don't know your experience with swaybar or bracing effects on chassis dynamics but the fundamental issue of what I believe you are described is a weight transfer issue, or said differently a delay in weight transfer, regardless of whether it is caused by bracing or a swaybar.

In my opinion the overall idea of chassis stiffness is to ensure that energy/weight is effectively transfered quickly to the tires needing the most grip at the right time.

I actually feel that you are describing exactly what I am considering doing to improve turn-in responsiveness and to create a more responsive cornering feel.....and that is by increasing the rear swaybar stiffness.

If you can imagine an extreme example of a mid-70s Cadillac and its overly lax suspension control that rolled and sloshed around corners. The backend felt lethargic and the front end pushed and rolled over the outer tire when cornering. The fundamental issue was a suspension purposely designed soft for ride quality......the softness delayed transferring weight to the front wheels until you were 1/2 way around the corner and the rear was excessively transferring weight to the outer rear wheel making the car feel lifeless....and uncontrollable.

The key for a more lively rear end is to rebalance the weight transfer by shifting more weight onto the front outer cornering wheel and at the same time resisting the rear axle side to side weight transfer by creating more slip....ie rear responsiveness. What comes to mind is the oversteer characteristics of a front engine rear drive car.

There are numerous ways and contributing factors to accomplish both the front to rear and side to side rear axle weight control including damping and spring rates, ride height, alignment, tire choice, wheel offset, bracing and swaybars to name the most common.

By increasing rear sway bar stiffness you will directly affect the amount and weight transfer from the rear inside wheel to the front outside wheel and lessen the inside rear wheel weight transfer to the opposite rear wheel..inducing better front outer wheel cornering grip and actually reducing the outside rear wheel grip, thus effectively enhancing the rotation of the car and improving the rear liveliness.

I find that a stock CTR has very good overall cornering responsiveness (even in comfort suspension setting) and exceptional chassis stiffness. When I installed the DSC I noticed a decline in cornering responsiveness in comfort suspension stiffness (softer roll) particularly at low speeds. So the DSC was softening the damping in the corresponding dampers to improve ride, but in doing so it reduced the overall stiffness and roll control. However, as I drove the car faster in the same suspension setting and cornered harder the damping stiffened and the cornering control improved...clearly that is the adaptive suspension maps adjusting the dampers.

In my case my driving includes supstancial braking and turning into low speed hairpin turns which means in this particular turning situation the DSC may not be ideally tuned for this low speed , substantial steering angle position, and damper compression....but in almost other situations works very well.

There are atleast 2 ways I believe that this could be addressed on a stock CTR using a DSC: 1) reprogramming the DSC, 2) or mechanically by stiffening the rear sway bar to regain more mechanical grip at the front while simultaneously decreasing rear axle grip on the std DSC program.

I'm not at all versed in electronically tuning a suspension system, but pretty familiar with traditional suspension setups especially for the areas I drive. I'm planning on adding a rear sway bar upgrade to regain the low speed tight corner weight transfer while retaining the overall effectiveness of the DSC....a workaround.

You might want to atleast consider a rear bar upgrade if you aren't into reprogramming and electronically tuning dampers....it could address the concerns you have expressed over the liveliness and responsiveness of the car with or without a DSC.

This is helpful, thanks. So far I have wanted to prioritize a predictable suspension response on the street, and had decided to leave the rear sway bar stock until I saw a need for an increased bias towards oversteer, but now I have more to think about. I appreciate the response!

I'm planning on doing this piecemeal so that I can learn more about how the car responds to various mods. Hopefully it'll help me continue to learn to feel how a vehicle is responding to inputs, and also to learn how different modifications affect those responses so that I can be more effective at figuring out what mods work best for me.

And to circle back to the conversation, my sense is that the front of the car is very rigid structurally, and I don't know that there's much to be gained from bracing the front subframe, front strut towers etc., but I'm happy to throw money at it anyway

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