Head-to-Head comparison of tunes for stock FL5 cars. Round 2.

[Nothing]

Why would this be an issue? Curious because I have not heard this before.

The OE map takes into account a wide range of fuel quality across different regions and I would expect is rather forgiving to pull some timing and not result in significant long term issues. Running nominally lower octane like 89 would be similar or worse. In the end it requires 91 minimum. 93 works fine.

For custom tunes, I could be wrong but I would expect if you are tuned for 93, it won't be as forgiving as being nominally off with OE. If you need to run 91, tune for 91. You won't want it to pull a lot of timing and have unpredictable performance on any level of boost.

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[Jester04]

The OE map takes into account a wide range of fuel quality across different regions and I would expect is rather forgiving to pull some timing and not result in significant long term issues. Running nominally lower octane like 89 would be similar or worse. In the end it requires 91 minimum. 93 works fine.

For custom tunes, I could be wrong but I would expect if you are tuned for 93, it won't be as forgiving as being nominally off with OE. If you need to run 91, tune for 91. You won't want it to pull a lot of timing and have unpredictable performance on any level of boost.

Correct this is why we tune for the fuel you have available. Even on stock map if you run 87oct it will knock and pull timing as a strategy to survive.

 

[PointByPatrol]

Hi folks…

So about a year ago I ran a head to head test of tunes you can buy for a stock car. The results of that test can be found here:

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/head-to-head-comparison-of-“off-the-shelf”-tunes-for-a-stock-fl5-coming-soon-updated-with-interim-results.52932/

Dyno chart from then:

The key learnings from that were:
- TSP and Phearable are very similar to each other.
- Both produce way more power than stock
- Quality of gas matters a lot. Both TSP and Phearable tunes had meaningful knock above 6k which pulled timing and limited peak power. This was on 93 octane.

So determined to try and get a clean read I went BACK to the dyno again to do the test again. This time I added a track-focused tune from Jester Tuned. To try and keep a clean read I used 93 octane from a different supplier this time AND I added an octane booster. I was going to use a gallon of E85 but could not find it near the dyno.

Caveat: These are results from a single car on a single day. Your mileage may vary.

Here is the results of round 2:

Once again knock was an issue above 6K rpm suggesting that a) these tunes are sensitive to fuel quality above 6k and b) 93 octane in Va sucks (remember I had added an octane booster). Peak horsepower for TSP and Jester was limited by knock retard.

There was a very small amount of knock on one cylinder with JesterTuned. TSP had more significant knock on two cylinders. Phearable had none. I ran 3 pulls each and picked the best result that was backed up. I also reran Phearable and Jesters again at the end to confirm the results and they were consistent with the first time.

- the Phearable tune appears to be the most conservative with timing and the only one without any knock. It previously was nearly identical to TSP when I ran this last year so I am guessing the performance difference was a fluke.

My conclusions:
- Objective dyno performance comparisons are hard - even when being as scientific as possible.
- All three of these tunes are solid options that will create loads more power than stock. I have had good experience with all three - and received good advice from all three. I have run all three tunes on my car and would feel totally comfortable running any of them long term. IMO A Hondata and one of these tunes is hands down the first mod people should do. They transform the car.

And for me… this story ends here. I put this together as a way to share back with the community. I have spent $1000+ on dyno time just to be able to share as I have known all along I would be modding the car - and that process starts soon. So take from it what you will.

Personally - I have run all three tunes extensively. I now run the JesterTuned tune and plan on him tuning the car as it goes under the knife. . Not because it made a bit more power… I actually expected it to make less. But I enjoy driving the car with his tune in it the most. I appreciate his willingness to develop a track day focused tune (vs peak hp) and his tuning philosophy seems well aligned to my goals. Does not hurt he has the patience of a saint putting up with my dumb and persistent questions.

You can’t go wrong with any of them. Don’t think I could own the car without a tune from one of them. All three tuners are great and I buy most of my parts from TSP .

Thanks all!
- Phillip

EXCELLENT work on this! Thank you for doing this!

 

[phearable]

Thanks for taking the time to post your results.

Do you happen to have datalogs for each dyno run?

Was curious to review logs if you have them as it looks like you may have not driven the vehicle long enough to allow the cam timing to come online when testing the Phearable tune.

Also, notating what the iats were for each run would be helpful.

Regarding knock retard with other tunes, it’s not ideal to constantly rely on the knock sensor and ecu to constantly pull ignition timing to prevent ignition timing. Especially for a “track” application.

 

[johnnybags]

You're in Richmond, too @Backmarker ? Would love to see how a tuned CTR feels compared to stock.

 

[FL5alive]

You're in Richmond, too? Would love to see how a tuned CTR feels compared to stock.

I can give you a ride in mine. Work near Glenside and live in the far west end.

 

[Cueyo]

I'm still impressed by the HP gains on the tunes. Nearly 50hp from just a tune is a massive difference.

 

[egxflash]

Any reliability concerns with a tune? Or is it nominal as long as you stick to gas you're tuned for (91 for us folks in CA)

 

[Cueyo]

Any reliability concerns with a tune? Or is it nominal as long as you stick to gas you're tuned for (91 for us folks in CA)

That's a pretty debated question, theoretically you're reducing the engines life by dumping more fuel and air into it, but the actual difference in noticeable lifespan will vary engine to engine. I think there's a reliability thread over on the civicx forums with k20c1s running tuned for years with no problems, so there's that.

 

[Jester04]

Thanks for taking the time to post your results.

Do you happen to have datalogs for each dyno run?

Was curious to review logs if you have them as it looks like you may have not driven the vehicle long enough to allow the cam timing to come online when testing the Phearable tune.

Also, notating what the iats were for each run would be helpful.

Regarding knock retard with other tunes, it’s not ideal to constantly rely on the knock sensor and ecu to constantly pull ignition timing to prevent ignition timing. Especially for a “track” application.

My tune does not rely on the knock sensor for a track application. This was explained to the customer and the reason for revisions to really dial in the tune with the fuel they actually have available.

 

[phearable]

My tune does not rely on the knock sensor for a track application. This was explained to the customer and the reason for revisions to really dial in the tune with the fuel they actually have available.

10-4

The advantage that comes from having tuned thousands of Hondas world wide for over the last 20 years includes knowing the quality of fuel in each state/region.

For example, 93 octane in Florida isn’t the same as 93 octane in NY or TX.

Happy tuning!

 

[Nikw91]

10-4

The advantage that comes from having tuned thousands of Hondas world wide for over the last 20 years includes knowing the quality of fuel in each state/region.

For example, 93 octane in Florida isn’t the same as 93 octane in NY or TX.

Happy tuning!

Is that a good or bad thing? (Coming from a curious Florida resident)

 

[phearable]

Good thing. Most Florida 93 octane is better quality than Texas 93 octane.

Stay away from Costco and Sam’s club fuel.

Is that a good or bad thing? (Coming from a curious Florida resident)

 

[Jester04]

10-4

The advantage that comes from having tuned thousands of Hondas world wide for over the last 20 years includes knowing the quality of fuel in each state/region.

For example, 93 octane in Florida isn’t the same as 93 octane in NY or TX.

Happy tuning!

Yes you can have an idea of the fuel quality but can’t help if they go and fill up at a mom and pop gas station or one of the sub par brands. So this is the reason for tuning with the fuel they easily have access to and the one that they use the most. Then if they use higher quality fuel there really is no problem.

He had knock issues with your tune too on the last test. So it is not fool proof.

Happy tuning to you too.

 

[Zpeedster M]

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