Spying on you?

[Superhatch]

Going back to OPs question, I don't see why Honda would be inclined to sell to insurance companies specifically to raise rates. Unless absolutely every insurance company was giving Honda tons of money for something that they likely already have the data for, then I can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone. It would make much more sense that Honda shares data with hired contracting companies to analyze it, or even just companies like JDpower who exist for that function.

GM's operating budget is considerably larger than Hondas and they saw value in only getting some single digit millions of dollars to sell their user data. We're Honda fans but never forget they are just a corporation with a board trying to make the most profit possible.

Also what I've learned since this thread started is that even if you don't have any data being sent from Honda directly your apps could be doing the same thing. Unless you have tracking set to "only while using app" or if you have an Apple phone you can also "ask not to share data" on your apps every single one of them can be doing the same thing were talking about the auto mfgs. doing.

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[svvitch]

Don't forget GM ditching CarPlay and android auto basically to get user data directly without our pesky phones getting in the way. Then they can collect it directly, just like CarPlay or AA.

Even with permissions on the apps, they still collect and sell to data brokers. GM and Honda do not want to work with Apple in the middle, they want to sell it directly.

 

[blueroadster]

GM has been collecting vehicle data for decades via OnStar. Auto manufacturers want connectivity to harvest data directly from the vehicle so they can sell it, force subscription fees to further boost profits, and offer connected services. Most do not seem aware of the sheer amount of data that is communicated and the frequency of those communications.

Disabling communications from an app on your phone is not going to prevent the embedded AT&T 4G LTE modem from communicating with infrastructure back to the mothership. If you want to prevent collection, you'll need to cut power to the modem, remove it, disconnect the antenna, etc. Doing any of those may impact other systems on the car.

 

[svvitch]

GM has been collecting vehicle data for decades via OnStar. Auto manufacturers want connectivity to harvest data directly from the vehicle so they can sell it, force subscription fees to further boost profits, and offer connected services. Most do not seem aware of the sheer amount of data that is communicated and the frequency of those communications.

Disabling communications from an app on your phone is not going to prevent the embedded AT&T 4G LTE modem from communicating with infrastructure back to the mothership. If you want to prevent collection, you'll need to cut power to the modem, remove it, disconnect the antenna, etc. Doing any of those may impact other systems on the car.

Right and opting out did not stop GM from doing it anyway sad.

 

[Sporky McGeuschky]

If you want to prevent collection, you'll need to cut power to the modem, remove it, disconnect the antenna, etc. Doing any of those may impact other systems on the car.

Hmmm... Is there a DIY thread on civicxi for this uninstall?
I already disconnected that dumbass fake exhaust sound BS.
The FL5 is my first Internet Car, and I'm really not OK with the violation of my 4th Amendment Right.

I'd really like to take back my Freedom from uninvited, intrusive, and invasive In-Vehicle WiFi.

 

[blueroadster]

There is WiFi, Cellular, and Bluetooth connectivity. Cellular is the main connection phoning back home. Manufacturers are allowed to collect data because owners in most cases unknowingly consented by purchasing the vehicle.

Disabling connectivity is not something manufacturers want owners to do. In fact, the longer they are used in a vehicle, the more painful they are to disable. I guess it remains to be seen how much functionality is impacted in the FL5 when communications are disabled.

What data is collected?

Read Honda's Privacy Policy: https://www.honda.com/privacy/privacy-notice

Also read their Connected Product Privacy Notice: https://www.honda.com/privacy/connected-product-privacy-notice

 

[Chilly613]

Going back to OPs question, I don't see why Honda would be inclined to sell to insurance companies specifically to raise rates. Unless absolutely every insurance company was giving Honda tons of money for something that they likely already have the data for, then I can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone. It would make much more sense that Honda shares data with hired contracting companies to analyze it, or even just companies like JDpower who exist for that function.

There are several sites and articles that talk about car manufactures and selling your car's data to insurance companies, not really hard to find and not surprising. JD Power is more of a market research company that takes surveys from consumers and ratings and gives rankings to things, they're not really a watch dog or whistleblower per se since a lot of companies pay them for their information and even then you should take their information with a grain of salt and come up with your own conclusion.

 

[Sporky McGeuschky]

What data is collected?

Read Honda's Privacy Policy: https://www.honda.com/privacy/privacy-notice

Also read their Connected Product Privacy Notice: https://www.honda.com/privacy/connected-product-privacy-notice

Awesome.
Thank you for these links.
Ideally, I'd like to disconnect 4G/5G Cellular AND any WiFi capability the car has installed.
...
BlueTooth, on the other hand, is nice to have.

 

[blueroadster]

WiFi and Cellular are integrated in the TCU:

The TCU is in the dash and seems like it would be a PITA to physically access. The under hood fuse panel label identifies a TCU fuse location, but there is no fuse installed there. The cabin area fuse panel does not identify a TCU fuse location but I wonder what the 10A fuse in Slot 11 supports that is labeled as "METER." Does anyone have access to the FL5 wiring diagrams?

 

[blueroadster]

Under hood fuse box (TCU is slot 26):

No fuse installed in that location:

Cabin area fuse panel:

Not sure what Slot 11 (METER) supports (First 10A fuse at the top of the second column from the left side):

 

[blueroadster]

Looking through various diagrams, it appears that the TCU in the FL5 is more modern in that it functions as a pass through device to the audio unit (similar to OnStar and others). If you remove or kill power to the TCU, you lose the GPS signal input from the GNSS Antenna and whatever data that is transmitted across the YB-CAN B and YF-CAN communication channels.

The PDF Service Manual available on this forum is very helpful for a lot of things but the TCU fuse references indicate different locations than what is actually used on the FL5. Pages 4911-4912 show the TCU pinout connections. They do not however, show other connections. From looking at the parts diagrams, there are external antennas that would need to have some physical connection to the TCU itself. Reference items 8, 9, and 10 in the following diagram and table:

It would be helpful to reference an FL5 electrical manual to chase pinouts and wires. In the FL5 for example, I do not know why there are so many extra fuses installed in slots where the feature is not available. Maybe mass production where all fuse panels leave the factory filled and only certain circuits work when wires are connected to the back side?

In any event, given the TCU implementation used on the FL5, it appears the best course of action to disable communications to the mothership would be to disconnect the external antenna connections. It would also be good to remove the SIM chip but I would imagine that is internal to the TCU enclosure. Doing so would retain the GPS signal and CAN bus communications but no remote vehicle location, geo-fencing, etc.

 

[Sporky McGeuschky]

@blueroadster

Keep it up, man! You are doing God's work!

 

[blueroadster]

Thanks...Just trying to help out where I can as I do not like connected vehicles. I understand the technological direction where things are headed (V2V, V2I, Smart Cities, Autonomous Infrastructure, etc.)...Example for high-level reading:

https://www.iotforall.com/autonomous-vehicle-infrastructure

I am a part of the camp that does not want any of that monitoring or an open Internet; My wife gives me enough "feedback" whenever she is in the car with me driving. If you go to the dealer and buy a car, the manufacturer should have no vested interest in retaining an ownership stake by monitoring your pattern of life starting when you drive the car off of the lot and into perpetuity.

At the time of purchase, I did not know that the FL5 had a TCU. Now that I know, I intend to figure out a way to disconnect.

 

[Superhatch]

Thanks...Just trying to help out where I can as I do not like connected vehicles. I understand the technological direction where things are headed (V2V, V2I, Smart Cities, Autonomous Infrastructure, etc.)...Example for high-level reading:

https://www.iotforall.com/autonomous-vehicle-infrastructure

I am a part of the camp that does not want any of that monitoring or an open Internet; My wife gives me enough "feedback" whenever she is in the car with me driving. If you go to the dealer and buy a car, the manufacturer should have no vested interest in retaining an ownership stake by monitoring your pattern of life starting when you drive the car off of the lot and into perpetuity.

At the time of purchase, I did not know that the FL5 had a TCU. Now that I know, I intend to figure out a way to disconnect.

I was going to buy a helms manual to donate to the cause but it doesn't look like it's available on their site.

I'm assuming that buying a sub to the https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/logon.aspx site is our only option now, but not sure if you can download anything from that site.

Edit: manual shared here: https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/service-manual-for-fl5-civic-type-r-pdf-download.54439/

Not sure if it includes electrical or not, downloading now.

 

[Superhatch]

Some possible good info in that manual:

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