Type R Track Times Pedal Dance vs. Type R+ Long Press and Experience

[johnloov]

@J1Avs Thanks for the input. I will be running a proper data logger this time. Is Track addict or LapTrophy on apple IOS a good data logger?

Appreciate the candid feedback.
What toe are you running on your car?

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[MooMoo]

I dunno if people would consider a lap timmer on ios a good data logger to get important data but if you are going to use one make sure you get an external GPS module with good refresh rate or it will be absolutely useless.

I would say you would want probably an aim solo

 

[GWonder]

Back to back session testing, same day at a 1.7 mile track. One tenth slower with pedal dance, so the difference is pretty much a wash. Pedal dance definitely feel more raw. Honda Data LogR S+ rank, driver.

 

[GWonder]

Difference in rear pad wear with pedal dance is very minimum.

Long hold:
EBC BlueStuff, 0.5mm a session.
Power Stop Track Day, 4.5mm a session.
OEM, 1.5mm a session.

A session is 20min.

If anyone know of a better wearing pad, please share.

 

[Club Version]

I had touched upon this topic briefly in my build thread. Overall, I feel more comfortable just doing the pedal dance. The car is more predictable and I can be more consistent. In addition It won’t melt my rear brake pads.

On the topic of alignment, I have driven the car with stock alignment which had the front set to 0 toe and the rear with some slight toe in. I got a custom alignment with 4 degree toe out in the front and 0 toe in the rear. The custom alignment made a huge difference for me on the initial turn-in response, the front end has a lot more bite, and the rear is more willing to come around which I like.

Going forward I would like to add a lower ball joint to see how adding a significant amount more front camber would feel like. I’m guessing it would fix the mild understeer I get on mid-corner.

 

[johnloov]

@Club Version @tezzasaurusrex
Excellent feedback.
Does anyone know how much 5mm total toe out equates to degrees toe out on the stock FL5?

Is this correct 5mm total toe out == Total Toe in degrees .44651?

 

[J1Avs]

@J1Avs Thanks for the input. I will be running a proper data logger this time. Is Track addict or LapTrophy on apple IOS a good data logger?

Appreciate the candid feedback.
What toe are you running on your car?

Nothing iOS-based will be strong without an 10hz external GPS. You need to pair those with an external, or grab something like an AIM Solo 2, Garmin Catalyst, Racebox, Dragy, etc.

 

[J1Avs]

I had touched upon this topic briefly in my build thread. Overall, I feel more comfortable just doing the pedal dance. The car is more predictable and I can be more consistent. In addition It won’t melt my rear brake pads.

On the topic of alignment, I have driven the car with stock alignment which had the front set to 0 toe and the rear with some slight toe in. I got a custom alignment with 4 degree toe out in the front and 0 toe in the rear. The custom alignment made a huge difference for me on the initial turn-in response, the front end has a lot more bite, and the rear is more willing to come around which I like.

Going forward I would like to add a lower ball joint to see how adding a significant amount more front camber would feel like. I’m guessing it would fix the mild understeer I get on mid-corner.

Melting rear pads in +R with TC Off + VSA Off is a Myth that needs to stop being pushed.

You do NOT need to do the pedal dance in +R to avoid melting rear pads. If you are running in Individual, entirely different story - and if so, you need to caveat that. If they are stock pads that are not designed for the temperature - that should also be caveated.

I have about ~400 laps on a USED set of CSG CE1 that had 4 days with a driver using VSA on. I used VSA for 3 sessions at one track because I need comfort suspension and didn't bother with the pedal dance, and I've only run 2 sessions in pedal dance.

 

[johnloov]

Thanks. Let me look into that external GPS system. There does seem to be under a second discrepency between the iOS and Log R .

One says I ran a 1.47.03 and the other 1.47.77

Does anyone know why the timer stops working after 6+ laps
Had a friend that has a modified type, stock engine, and he runs 1.41s - gave me some pointers -
I was on track to run 1.45's ran into traffic, then spun out.

Anyone know why Log R stops recording times? Is there a setting?

 

[johnloov]

Melting rear pads in +R with TC Off + VSA Off is a Myth that needs to stop being pushed.

You do NOT need to do the pedal dance in +R to avoid melting rear pads. If you are running in Individual, entirely different story - and if so, you need to caveat that. If they are stock pads that are not designed for the temperature - that should also be caveated.

I have about ~400 laps on a USED set of CSG CE1 that had 4 days with a driver using VSA on. I used VSA for 3 sessions at one track because I need comfort suspension and didn't bother with the pedal dance, and I've only run 2 sessions in pedal dance.

I agree on the rear pads myth! -- because when I went to the BMW Track Days, they explained that the brake vectoring works with enabling the front brakes, - acting like an oar in the water to help change direction - not the rears, and that's exactly what's in the Type R explanation diagram of how brake vectoring works.

It might have helped me avoid my spin.

I did feel great with the Type R + pedal dance and 5mm toe out, really made my car turn in much better.

I really do feel the difference .

Though - plot twist - my friend that races a lot he does say he hears the rear brakes squeaking working on Type R - long press.... on tight turning...

How do we scientifically find out. Is there some kind of log data on the car that can prove no rear brakes are used to turn the car in?

 

[MooMoo]

People are going through rear pads way faster than fronts and really fast too, the car is using rear pads to do something and its doing it likely a lot not just to rotate the car, people are seeing wear on rear quick even with not taking the car to the track

 

[Gansan]

I agree on the rear pads myth! -- because when I went to the BMW Track Days, they explained that the brake vectoring works with enabling the front brakes, - acting like an oar in the water to help change direction - not the rears, and that's exactly what's in the Type R explanation diagram of how brake vectoring works.

The reason people have the impression Agile Handling Assist works with the rear brakes is that Honda Research published a paper about it and it detailed in diagrams the rear brakes being applied. It's likely they've tweaked the proportions of front to rear balance pressures over the years, but I would think they're going to use whatever combination gets the results they want. One reason they may have originally used the rear brakes is that the front tires' traction budget is more limited in an FF car. The chassis needs to use front traction for turning, and by using proportionally more rear brakes, you aren't taking away from that.

 

[simpleisbest]

I think driving style and familiarity do play a factor.

For autox I initially found that with the long press +R mode the car was more eager to turn, but as I began playing more with rear toe, tire pressures, and rear sway bar stiffness to get the car to rotate consistently I am finding the car now feels faster with the pedal dance (and the times seem to show as such).

I feel the micro-braking from the AHA may unnecessarily slows the car a tiny bit, which comes into play for turns that you would only need a throttle lift to achieve the proper amount of weight transfer to get enough front grip to make the turn. For tighter turns that you would use the brake to transfer weight, you are already using the brakes so the benefits of AHA don't really seem to shine. YMMV

 

[johnloov]

Excellent data fellas! Thanks for confirming - I was mixed up with what I felt, and what I read online.

I know people running heavily modified ( slicks, engine mods, suspensions, wide tires, massive brakes ) Type R's running zero toe on front and rear, and have never tried the pedal dance - are using brakes to turn. I felt it.

When I ran shot gun with my friends heavily brake/suspension modded FL5, took my advice - he slightly toed out, and instantly gained 1 second on track, and I could hear the brakes working with Long Press Type R - but couldn't feel if it was front or rear. This does not seem like the natural way to turn in. His car is also running wider than mine, because of the suspension alignment. Yes it's safer to have understeer, and some are faster with that, but really you want the car to turn in naturally without using the brakes. It's also better for track tire wear according to the pros and MotoIQ to have toe out in front of especially front wheel drive cars.

Personally - I can for 100% sure say - that going 5mm toe out in front, lets me now turn in the car way sharper, and I don't need to use torque brakes to turn the car in anymore. You can see in my spin out, how easily the car rotates, and I overcooked it.

And for 100% certainty, my brakes are not smelling anywhere near as much as before coming off track, and I am pushing it way harder than when I first started. For sure Pedal Dance has allowed me not to cook my stock brake pads as much. Also after canyon carving with just type R, I would come home and my garage would stink of brakes, and now that smell is almost gone with pedal dance.

I think I can get the car to achieve a 1.45 - and get close to Randy 1.44.22 - I actually was on track 2 times on Dec 15th.

My goal is to find what is the exact perfect setup to run the fastest Laguna Seca lap times on a stock FL5, stock rims, stock tires. I'm getting closer. I think she will break a 1.45 soon with these adjustments.

Thanks for Red Pilling this topic fellas.

I still have to believe the pros in wheel alignment - again recommend watching this.

 

[simpleisbest]

I would suggest you start monitoring the results of your alignment with a tire pyrometer and log your temps to pair with some basic race telemetry. Racebox Mini (GPS logger) is an easy one to use to see which turns you are seeing benefits and I think it is iPhone and Android compatible.

From my own experience (not an expert), front tire toe out gives your front tires a "head start" on on corner entry grip. You will feel it turn in earlier, but the fronts will also be loaded up earlier in the turn and could "run out" of grip later in the turn (ie, basic grip circle principles) or the turn after. Depending on the shape/length of the turn that can be perfect, better, okay-ish, or bad. Front toe out can be kinda a double edged sword at times, so it just really depends on track and tire.

As your track pace gets faster, you can look at tire temps, telemetry, and tire wear to monitor and optimize

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