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What are the chances of honda eventually using gearbox Auto Transmissions in next gen civics?

racer

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Cost and Mileage and emissions concerns will be first matters on if Honda ditches the CVT for a conventional Auto in the next Civic.
 

Helmigurt

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Honda definitely sees the future in the CVT (and I fully agree). Unfortunately, currently they don't have a CVT appropriate for cars with a sufficient torque handling capacity. So in some european countries they offer only MT or CVT for the 1.0T and 1.5T gas engines and only MT or 10AT for the 1.6L diesel. They don't offer gas engine civicxs with the 10AT although of course they could.
The diesel has significantly less max power than the 1.5T, but also significantly more max torque, which apparently exceeds the safe limit for the CVT.
So, if someone somehow managed to bolt on various pipes to her CVT-equipped car, fueled it with rocket fuel and tuned its 1.5T to make nearly 220 ftlb torque, she should be concerned.:confused1:
They actually don’t offer their own 10g automatic transmission on the diesel civic in Europe. They use the ZF 9g transmission.
 

taiso0019

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Far from cherry picking, it is down to basic design. having a million different gear ratio is something you can never be done in a fix gear transmission.

or you can keep adding extra gear like what they are doing right now. Or we can get the job done better with 2 drums and a belt :dunno: My guess is they will need a new belt every race but it is fine on F1 budget.
I get that, in theory it should be quicker. But the fact that no manufacturer has come up with a feasible performance application for the consumer market probably means it will cost more than what they hoped to save by pursuing this technology. Or it simply has no place in a part of the market where consumers would expect more driver involvement or predictable power delivery.

All I know is that the first time I took my former Accord Sport to a proper mountain road, the chassis was let down by that CVT. Suddenly the car I truly enjoyed reminded me that I should have hunted for the 6-speed version. The rest is history. No CVTs for me again, no matter how far they've come.
 

xcoreflyup

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I get that, in theory it should be quicker. But the fact that no manufacturer has come up with a feasible performance application for the consumer market probably means it will cost more than what they hoped to save by pursuing this technology. Or it simply has no place in a part of the market where consumers would expect more driver involvement or predictable power delivery.

All I know is that the first time I took my former Accord Sport to a proper mountain road, the chassis was let down by that CVT. Suddenly the car I truly enjoyed reminded me that I should have hunted for the 6-speed version. The rest is history. No CVTs for me again, no matter how far they've come.
Here...general perception vs engineering.

It is down to the basic engineering design of the 2 transmission, not theory. It is ok you like more involvement but it will take years for you match what a CVT can do. I do think a Performance CVT is far more expensive and need way more maintenance than a DCT.

 
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Gruber

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It is fully understandable why many drivers like manual transmissions over automatic.
But I don't see any appeal whatever of a fixed-gear appliance vs. CVT. Today the load handling of available CVT models may be limited for some car makers like Honda, but there are large SUVs with CVT. Soon CVTs will be practically indestructible and 17-speed automatic gearboxes will not make sense any longer.
Besides, the more gears, the more the AT behaves like a CVT. And the trend is to keep increasing the number of gears.
 

Ataricade

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Not as huge a fan of the cvt, but not sure I wanna go full manual as I drive to work at like 5:30 in the morning and usually half-sleep there. Totally want a gearbox; but the 10th gen civics I've 100% fallen in love with in terms of aesthetics. Can't switch to another vehicle, too bubbly in all others' designs.

Thoughts on whether or not they'll give us a 6/8/10 speed auto?
You can drive a manual half-asleep trust me
 

Charley-TX

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Without stepping on anyone's toe; some basic transmission knowledge to consider. I will ge to the Civic part in a second.
To transfer power, gears are the strongest to handle load- weakness is the clutch.
Because of this, consider a basic pickup truck, fixed with the same engine, a conventional automatic has higher tow rating vs manual trans because of the limit what a clutch disk can handle. Automatics' use torque converter "fluid coupling clutch" needs to deal with heat issues.
Automatics use a simple principle of sun/planetary gears, ten-speed autos I believe have 3 sets of planetaries. But they also use clutches to grab onto parts of the planetary sets to change gear ratios. There are several clutches in an automatic trans.
CVT is a simple 2 cones an 1 belt; relatively simple, in a since unlimited gear ratios, easily can be pushed to "overdrive" under light load.
Your basic Civic is an Econo compact car, moderate engine power output, light weight, built for fuel economy, usually as a commuter.
A simple manual trans or CVT is a perfect choice because CVT can handle the car's weight and engine power. There is simply no need for a 10 speed auto.
In any other passenger or light duty truck a 6 speed is plenty.
IMO the only reason manufacturers go for 10 speed AT is to find better fuel economy, to fill the gaps between the fixed gear ratios, to be able to keep the engine in peak fuel efficiency.
Until the electric vehicles take over, we will see MT be limited to enthusiast level, all other ECO cars will go with CVT as they compete for best fuel economy.
Flame suite ON.
 

coo1rim

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for the Civic, I think Honda is on the right track. CVT works fine and the manual transmission for the enthusiast who wants to shred rubber.

What they need to work on, is to make the manual more accessible to the masses (2019 Corolla seems to be on the same path). They need a default (vs sport) mode that'll make it even easier for beginners to drive smoothly... Corolla's ability to rev match and adaptive cruise control is genius for an entry-level car.
 

taiso0019

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Here...general perception vs engineering.

It is down to the basic engineering design of the 2 transmission, not theory. It is ok you like more involvement but it will take years for you match what a CVT can do. I do think a Performance CVT is far more expensive and need way more maintenance than a DCT.

I don't follow. Once again we're still just going over the theory of the engineering behind CVTs. Jason basically illustrates how they're not currently designed for higher output engines. Nowhere in the video are we going over a transmission that can ACTUALLY do what he's describing, only what they could technically do. So I'm still not sure how it would take me years to match a current CVT (if anything, driving with a CVT held me back as a driver for two years)...when the best one I've had access to still rubber-banded and was not able to utilize all the torque available from a dead stop. What's the point of not needing to 'shift' when most newer CVTs are simulating gears and can't handle over 250 pounds of torque?

Until we see an application in a production sports/performance oriented vehicle we're basically going in circles...fun fact he may appreciate CVTs for their potential but when he picked up a Crosstrek he still got the manual.
 

garoto

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Not as huge a fan of the cvt, but not sure I wanna go full manual as I drive to work at like 5:30 in the morning and usually half-sleep there. Totally want a gearbox; but the 10th gen civics I've 100% fallen in love with in terms of aesthetics. Can't switch to another vehicle, too bubbly in all others' designs.

Thoughts on whether or not they'll give us a 6/8/10 speed auto?
The person who is asleep driving wants a 10 speed auto. Not a manual because he’s a sleep. But a 10 speed auto does matter over a CVT while asleep?
 
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Aurelleah

Aurelleah

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The person who is asleep driving wants a 10 speed auto. Not a manual because he’s a sleep. But a 10 speed auto does matter over a CVT while asleep?
THe sleeping part was a hyperbole, the amount of people who don't seem to understand that is disappointing. Automatic feels better than a CVT and that's more than enough reason to want one
 

Gruber

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.....the best one I've had access to still rubber-banded and was not able to utilize all the torque available from a dead stop. What's the point of not needing to 'shift' when most newer CVTs are simulating gears and can't handle over 250 pounds of torque?
If you only drove a rubber band CVT and you think most CVTs simulate gears, then you may be prejudiced. I only care that my current car has a CVT which has no rubber band feel and it doesn't simulate any fixed gears unless you ask for it.
 

garoto

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THe sleeping part was a hyperbole, the amount of people who don't seem to understand that is disappointing. Automatic feels better than a CVT and that's more than enough reason to want one
Your reference to 5 AM made it sound real. Outside of the sleeping reference, yes, a 10AT is favorable over a CVT.
 

xcoreflyup

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I don't follow. Once again we're still just going over the theory of the engineering behind CVTs. Jason basically illustrates how they're not currently designed for higher output engines. Nowhere in the video are we going over a transmission that can ACTUALLY do what he's describing, only what they could technically do. So I'm still not sure how it would take me years to match a current CVT (if anything, driving with a CVT held me back as a driver for two years)...when the best one I've had access to still rubber-banded and was not able to utilize all the torque available from a dead stop. What's the point of not needing to 'shift' when most newer CVTs are simulating gears and can't handle over 250 pounds of torque?

Until we see an application in a production sports/performance oriented vehicle we're basically going in circles...fun fact he may appreciate CVTs for their potential but when he picked up a Crosstrek he still got the manual.
:doh:

CVT is doing exactly what he is describing, thats why it is more fuel efficient. By getting to most optimized gear ratio better than 5 fixed gear. it is a very simple concept.

2.jpg
 
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coo1rim

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:doh:

CVT is doing exactly what he is describing, thats why it is more fuel efficient. By getting to most optimized gear ratio better than 5 fixed gear. it is a very simple concept.

2.jpg
Gains are pathetic when factoring how much better the manuals can put down the power.

Toyota's hybrid solution (found in 2019 Corolla) is a great way to close the gap. But, adding direct gearing (to a cvt transmission) isn't necessary if potential customers are more focused on efficiency and consumption.

If I was Honda, I'd kick off the year with a big invite to the auto journalist, cause when the competition does it, they're totally going to leave out the manual civic.
 
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