🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[johnloov]

Excellent overview #1 rule - which our data also proves.

80% of wear comes from contaimenants - so change your oil every 2000-3000 miles 1-3 track days max with an API SP/SQ engine oil.

Pretty much any API SP/SQ full synthetic vs gambling on using a higher end engine oil for a longer period of time. I'll have the PUP OW-20 engine oil analysis after ski season ready.

• Main idea: Modern engines use oil as a hydraulic fluid (VVT / cylinder deactivation / turbos), so dirty oil can hurt hardware fast—especially early on.
• Rule of thumb from the clip: Do very short early oil-change intervals (~2,000–2,500 miles) to “flush out” break-in debris/contaminants.
• Why: The argument is that particle contamination drives most wear (often quoted around ~80% of mechanical wear in oil-lubricated systems).

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[Ktrw]

Lake Speed Jr. put out a long livestream/recording that has quite a bit of information regarding what to look at with engine oils, including lots of testing between 8 engine oils on a controlled engine dyno. It is about an hour and a half, but if you're curious enough to follow along this thread specifically about engine oil, you will absolutely learn new things watching it.

The natural conclusion of the video points back to what he always says regarding your application should dictate what your oil selection should be. There simply is not an engine oil that does it all, but some are decent across the board. For use on race tracks, there are certainly better oils, but they would not be good street car oils. Unfortunately, a lot of the important characteristics of the oils shown in this video are extremely difficult or impossible to find for most oils on the market. There is a complex matrix at play with engine oils between being shear stable, producing low deposits, generating power, facilitating heat transfer, oil longevity, and wear.

You will see they have a relative ranking portion of the video for the 8 oils tested, but then they dive deeper into power and heat transfer characteristics, and you realize things aren't so simple. They plan to do this test again with more engine oils, including Motul, Valvoline Restore and Protect, the new Pennzoil Ultra Platinum SQ formulation (which may or may not be different), and more.

 

[Ktrw]

Alright, I got my most recent UOA back from SPEEDiagnostix. I am pretty excited about the result since my wear rate has finally fallen below the ideal threshold of 5ppm/1000 miles. I am just over 10,000 miles at this point. The viscosity held up a bit better this time around, which may have been because the last oil change was replacing 0W-20 PUP. My fuel dilution was surprisingly low for my use of the car, as I recently moved to a place where everything is super close, so the car is getting short-tripped more (unfortunately, but it is highly convenient).

Something that seems a bit weird to me is that the additive package seems to be slightly different or slightly depleted, although I don't think it would have been the new SQ formulation when I changed it last time. There will be some variance bottle to bottle and from the testing method so maybe it's nothing. Regardless, PUP 5W-30 appears to be capable of excellent wear protection for street/spirited driving. This oil sample has zero track days, but I do drive very hard on backroads when I can, so this isn't a simple daily driven result.

I have 0W-20 PUP in the car at the moment to do some A-B-B-A testing, but I kinda wish I would have put in 5W-20 PUP just to see if it is more shear stable as I would expect. I've been debating what viscosity I want to continue running in the warmer months, and when the car is tuned, but after seeing this result I probably will stick with 5W-30. It would be interesting to try something like Liqui-Moly Molygen next time, but it is a little difficult to justify the price increase for an oil that shears like crazy. I may also be able to wait until the HRC oil hits the shelves before I change oil next as well, which I am dying to see the results of.

 

[johnloov]

This is excellent data - excellent analysis - and fits your application perfect as you're not tracking it - you are not overheating - and you are changing it with the right frequency. Love the logic in your testing.

I do also think there is a few other variables we need to track and let me share with you a Honda dealership horror story.

Oil Fill Level Questions - Some are saying fill it right past the fill line - we know under filling and over filling is very bad.

1) On a stock Type R. How much exactly do you guys fill in quarts?
2) The dipstick is almost impossible to read levels with new clear oil. How do you guys see exactly if you have too much or too little

Honda Oil Change Horror story:
Before racing COTA, I took the car to Honda Dallas and took with me the PUP 0W-20 for them to fill as part of their free Honda service. I got the car back, and noticed the last quart of oil was like 90% full, and then checked and the car was under filled in oil! So then I filled it up, trying to find the right level on the dip stick. Then I drove to Austin, and when I pulled into a friends house, I heard a scrape, and the underbody tray was bulged out -- they forgot to put the bolts on, and then I also noticed some oil on the side - didn't know if it was from the oil change. I took it straight to Honda in Austin, and they said, the oil filter was leaking oil! They could barely get the oil filter off, and they think they dropped or damaged the oil ring somehow, and that doesn't even usually happen to over tightening.

My trust in mechanics is really low these days.

What's statically insane is... How do you fck up all three things ! In a simple oil change ??

1) Under-filling it
2) Forgetting to screw on the undertray
3) Breaking the seal on the oil filter, to the point I was leaking oil!

How do you fck up all three things - is beyond reality!

Unbelievable - Luckily I caught it before the race and Honda Austin made it right.

Lesson''s learned

1) Make sure you are not undefiled
2) Make sure you are not overfilled ( the question is exactly how much oil should we be filling ? and how much slightly over the fill line should we be running for track purposes? )
3) Make sure never to trust the dealership

 

[Ktrw]

This is excellent data - excellent analysis - and fits your application perfect as you're not tracking it - you are not overheating - and you are changing it with the right frequency. Love the logic in your testing.

I do also think there is a few other variables we need to track and let me share with you a Honda dealership horror story.

Oil Fill Level Questions - Some are saying fill it right past the fill line - we know under filling and over filling is very bad.

1) On a stock Type R. How much exactly do you guys fill in quarts?
2) The dipstick is almost impossible to read levels with new clear oil. How do you guys see exactly if you have too much or too little

Honda Oil Change Horror story:
Before racing COTA, I took the car to Honda Dallas and took with me the PUP 0W-20 for them to fill as part of their free Honda service. I got the car back, and noticed the last quart of oil was like 90% full, and then checked and the car was under filled in oil! So then I filled it up, trying to find the right level on the dip stick. Then I drove to Austin, and when I pulled into a friends house, I heard a scrape, and the underbody tray was bulged out -- they forgot to put the bolts on, and then I also noticed some oil on the side - didn't know if it was from the oil change. I took it straight to Honda in Austin, and they said, the oil filter was leaking oil! They could barely get the oil filter off, and they think they dropped or damaged the oil ring somehow, and that doesn't even usually happen to over tightening.

My trust in mechanics is really low these days.

What's statically insane is... How do you fck up all three things ! In a simple oil change ??

1) Under-filling it
2) Forgetting to screw on the undertray
3) Breaking the seal on the oil filter, to the point I was leaking oil!

How do you fck up all three things - is beyond reality!

Unbelievable - Luckily I caught it before the race and Honda Austin made it right.

Lesson''s learned

1) Make sure you are not undefiled
2) Make sure you are not overfilled ( the question is exactly how much oil should we be filling ? and how much slightly over the fill line should we be running for track purposes? )
3) Make sure never to trust the dealership

I've had some friends with poor experiences regarding dealership service for oil changes within the past few years. Not tightening the drain plug, the oil filter, leaving bolts out, etc., so I can't recommend it. Sorry that happened to you though, what a pain lol. Excited to see what your results are like with the PUP 0W-20 (you should try the 5W-20 too if you get the chance, so we can see if it's more shear stable).

My car with an oil and filter change ends up being right around 5.7 quarts each time I've done it. I hated the OEM dipstick because, as you said, you can't see the oil level with fresh oil. I got the Chasing J's titanium dipstick so that I can see the oil level, but something like the Wunderladen dipstick might be a better option for folks out there.

 

[B16B]

This is excellent data - excellent analysis - and fits your application perfect as you're not tracking it - you are not overheating - and you are changing it with the right frequency. Love the logic in your testing.

I do also think there is a few other variables we need to track and let me share with you a Honda dealership horror story.

Oil Fill Level Questions - Some are saying fill it right past the fill line - we know under filling and over filling is very bad.

1) On a stock Type R. How much exactly do you guys fill in quarts?
2) The dipstick is almost impossible to read levels with new clear oil. How do you guys see exactly if you have too much or too little

Honda Oil Change Horror story:
Before racing COTA, I took the car to Honda Dallas and took with me the PUP 0W-20 for them to fill as part of their free Honda service. I got the car back, and noticed the last quart of oil was like 90% full, and then checked and the car was under filled in oil! So then I filled it up, trying to find the right level on the dip stick. Then I drove to Austin, and when I pulled into a friends house, I heard a scrape, and the underbody tray was bulged out -- they forgot to put the bolts on, and then I also noticed some oil on the side - didn't know if it was from the oil change. I took it straight to Honda in Austin, and they said, the oil filter was leaking oil! They could barely get the oil filter off, and they think they dropped or damaged the oil ring somehow, and that doesn't even usually happen to over tightening.

My trust in mechanics is really low these days.

What's statically insane is... How do you fck up all three things ! In a simple oil change ??

1) Under-filling it
2) Forgetting to screw on the undertray
3) Breaking the seal on the oil filter, to the point I was leaking oil!

How do you fck up all three things - is beyond reality!

Unbelievable - Luckily I caught it before the race and Honda Austin made it right.

Lesson''s learned

1) Make sure you are not undefiled
2) Make sure you are not overfilled ( the question is exactly how much oil should we be filling ? and how much slightly over the fill line should we be running for track purposes? )
3) Make sure never to trust the dealership

There are plenty of dip stick options out there that actually show a valid reading so you should get one. I use the Chasing J's dip stick and I always keep my oil a hairline under the full mark. I don't know how much I'm putting in exactly, but its probably about 5.6 quarts.

https://www.chasingjs.com/product/titanium-oil-dip-stick-honda-k20-k24-and-s2000

https://www.wunderladenracing.com/products/honda-civic-gen-10-11-dipstick?variant=49831410598081

 

[johnloov]

This is great feedback. Does anyone have the precise science on exactly where the fill level should be? I’ve heard on many high-performance 911s and other car forums and videos that it should be a little bit above the fill line to ensure you get lubrication in high G Force turns -- it’s also what helped a lot of Porsche owners from destroying their engines on track - and it’s also what my trusted Honda dealership in California that was impeccable recommended that it should be slightly above the fill line.

 

[jdezee]

This is great feedback. Does anyone have the precise science on exactly where the fill level should be? I’ve heard on many high-performance 911s and other car forums and videos that it should be a little bit above the fill line to ensure you get lubrication in high G Force turns -- it’s also what helped a lot of Porsche owners from destroying their engines on track - and it’s also what my trusted Honda dealership in California that was impeccable recommended that it should be slightly above the fill line.

I'm sure I'm out of my league on this but I'll give my redneck mechanic answer.

You need enough oil in the wet sump system to keep the oil pick up submersed in oil and still fill all the oil galleys in the system to provide constant pressure and volume. That is the piece a lot will miss, pressure and volume are what is important and intertwined. Too much oil in the crankcase where the crank is hitting the oil and aerating it will cause oiling issues and a huge decrease in the ability of the oil to do its intended function of lubrication. Too little oil is easier one to understand and leads to the lack of pressure and that causes the disco party in your engine oil.

The manufacturer of the engine throughout their manufacturing process will determine what the needed level of oil is for proper function, that being said that amount they list will have a buffer or variance before things go bad. Not a huge variance but one does exist.

Don't stress if your oil level is just above or just below the line on the dipstick. Manufacturers are making products for the average person, just try and add the amount that they list in the manual. If you have a reason to add more (I.e. Additional oil coolers or larger oil pans) follow the suggestions of the manufacturer of those products.

Just be glad they haven't gone the no dipstick route yet.

 

[Gizmo_FL5]

1. Oil Brand and Viscosity : Honda factory fill 0w-20. Side note: I accidently typed in Amsoil as the lubricant type instead of the Honda oil which is why it says fluid may be misidentified.
2. Miles on Oil : 3001
3. Street use. Purchased used with 2500 miles so no clue how it was driven before. I do regular street driving with maybe a pull here and there once in a blue, but typically baby my cars and try not to abuse them. Won't track the car.
4. Engine Temp Ranges Observed: Unknown
5. Modifications : Stock
6. UOA Report : Used the Amsoil UOA kit
7. Optional: Plan on changing it every 4k-5k miles with Amsoil Signature Series 0w-20 and OEM Honda filter

 

[johnloov]

1. Oil Brand and Viscosity : Honda factory fill 0w-20. Side note: I accidently typed in Amsoil as the lubricant type instead of the Honda oil which is why it says fluid may be misidentified.
2. Miles on Oil : 3001
3. Street use. Purchased used with 2500 miles so no clue how it was driven before. I do regular street driving with maybe a pull here and there once in a blue, but typically baby my cars and try not to abuse them. Won't track the car.
4. Engine Temp Ranges Observed: Unknown
5. Modifications : Stock
6. UOA Report : Used the Amsoil UOA kit
7. Optional: Plan on changing it every 4k-5k miles with Amsoil Signature Series 0w-20 and OEM Honda filter

The first 10,000 miles, with oil changes every 2500-5000 miles you will still be flushing out break in wear metals.

 

[johnloov]

Forgot is anyone getting a black stone virgin oil sample of pennzoil ultra platinum 0W-20 API SQ??

I’m finally sending the API SP version to black stone and filling with SQ.

 

[johnloov]

Here is the latest - best results so far. I'll have in a few months the PUP 0W/20 6 track days on API-SQ results in. The car did not go over 217F water temps and we ran it with two drivers 2 track days 10 sessions per day 25 min per session. The thinner oil does really help keep the car cool, and the data shows it's protecting very well the stock car with these change intervals. The PUP seemed to hold better than the Honda Oil. It will be interesting to see how the API-SQ version holds and the 5w-20 version should hold grade even better theoretically. That's all I have for now and also threw in the tranmission fluid results using Honda OEM transmission fluid. It seems you really do need to flush that in the beginning as well. It seems the engine really at 10k miles does start to flush out all the break in metals as Lakespeed Junior said.

Also here is my transmission oil data

 

[johnloov]

This is why it’s critical to change your motor oil and transmission oil frequently in breaking in both. Removing contaminants until you see a stabilization in Parts per million. Looks like the engine is stabilized, but the transmission needs a few more flushes.

 

[johnloov]

Another interesting video regarding GM trying many types of engine oils and viscosities. The engine temperature was exponentially the biggest factor in engine wear out of all the variables they have tried according to GM. It didn't matter what engine oil it was or viscosities or mineral oil or synthetic or oil additives. Running cool was #1 and getting cold engine up to operating temp fast. So operating within the optimal operating temp. So you start to see what oils and change intervals optimize for that.

 

[cryptolime]

i got to change my oil filter again. changed my oil last week but the Honda filter i used wobbled a bit as i threaded it on. guess the threads weren't cut 100% straight or something. Also got a rattle sometimes on startup like the anti drainback valve isn't sealing.

anyways, makes me nervous, so bought a new one.

anyone ever ran into a Honda filter with a manufacturing defect? bought this one from the dealer

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