🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[Rhorn]

Couple questions. What metals and values are important to look at to determine whether the engine is wearing properly or if there is an issue?

I know both blackstone and @johnloov have said my oil sample looks good but there is a lot in that report so just looking to see what I should focus on and what isn’t that important.

Honestly I really wouldn't worry and stress about specific metals in your reports. Blackstone labs in general are not the most accurate and can have inconsistencies in terms of reporting and there are always going to be varation in your reports. If you dont believe me you can send them 2 samples of the same oil and the reports wont be identical. The benefit of blackstone is that they show you the averages from their database. There are other labs that have more accurate numbers and do real tests for fuel dilution.

Your engine is brand new and its pretty hard for you to see any red flags on your reports unless you are intentionally trying to break something. If your stuff is within the averages then you are fine. Unless you are tracking the car or if your engine is heavily modified I wouldn't worry to much.

The biggest thing I look for in these reports is the oil properties and whats going on with the oil in terms of shearing/thinning out and what are the additives because our engines are a GDI turbo so ideally you want an oil that has low SAPS (Sulphated Ash Phosphorous and Sulphur) to prevent carbon buildup. Im not concerned with the metal values of the engine until I start to get around 50k miles, and even then I won't really care because there's nothing I'd be able to do lol.

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[johnloov]

 

[johnloov]

I had blackstone go through their database, and try to find numbers lower than 5ppm Aluminum and 4ppm Iron, and here was their response.

 

[cryptolime]

anyone try HPL oil? people are getting great UOAs over on BITOG forum

 

[johnloov]

Have not - interested

Here is an educational video why formulation of the oil is extremely important, and we hope to prove that out. It's not simply about 0w-20 vs 5w-30 - yes thicker can be better if formulation is equal or better to the thinner oil. Formulation is very important and here is a great overview - Some good tips - Enjoy -



Thicker better ? not always - it's a balance - thicker equals more friction - higher heat



bonus mention on Honda and using 0W-20 on engine testing from 20+ years ago

 

[Rhorn]

Those videos aren't really applicable here. The biggest takeaway from the Engineering Explained was that the problem was a manufacturer defect. Using a thicker oil would just be a band aide solution, since thats not the source of the problem.

Also other performance turbo I4s recommend thicker oils, Focus RS is 5W-50, Golf R Recommends 5W40 in some countries, the GM recommends 0W40 for track use for the Camaro. So its not really convincing.

There is also a use difference between using a car for a street and then tracking it. The recommendations always say to go to a thicker oil in cars that have track manuals

 

[johnloov]

@Rhorn Do you have any oil samples to share?

Those videos aren't really applicable here. The biggest takeaway from the Engineering Explained was that the problem was a manufacturer defect. Using a thicker oil would just be a band aide solution, since thats not the source of the problem.

Also other performance turbo I4s recommend thicker oils, Focus RS is 5W-50, Golf R Recommends 5W40 in some countries, the GM recommends 0W40 for track use for the Camaro. So its not really convincing.

There is also a use difference between using a car for a street and then tracking it. The recommendations always say to go to a thicker oil in cars that have track manuals

Do you have any oil samples to share?

Would appreciate seeing oil samples from track use with less than 5ppm Aluminum and 4ppm Iron.

 

[johnloov]

I spoke to Jason with WOT - He took a look at my engine temps and wear analysis with the Honda OW-20 and my track temps. He said the engine temps and oil are doing extremely well in stock form. The water temp is accurate, and he said the stock car is running cool on both Laguna Seca and at COTA, which was one of my hottest and hardest tracks I ran.

Here are the max water temps recorded in my car. Max I saw was 221F Water Temps. Max 257F on Oil temps - Even though the oil temp sensor is a predicted value, the water temp is accurate. It will be interesting to see how much hotter the stock car will run with a 5w30. 221F was the hottest the water temp I could find with running the Honda 0W-20 Ultimate - That's the only scientific baseline I have currently. I'll see next week the oil analysis after 1 day at Laguna and 2 days at COTA, and ~2500 mile oil service - longest and hardest I've tested so far - Stay tuned.

 

[ctechauto]

Only have 1 Blackstone report from our FL5 which we changed at 858 miles so nothing to really show for that except a shit ton of moly, ZDDP additives etc. Will report more on our FL5 at 5k miles. It was then tuned (COBB used our FL5 for MY25 development) at 1,100-ish miles, tons of dyno time with COBB and protuner, and was broken in hot and fast when we bought it new. Quite a bit of high RPM engine braking to help piston rings seat better etc at that 858mi sample. Oil used was Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 with Liqui Moly MOS2 additive.

Heres our (daily) FK8 at 90k miles. Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 with Liqui Moly MOS2 additive every 5,000 miles for the past 50k-ish miles since we got it.

On the K20C1 we like to use either OEM Honda or Wix XP filters, BTW.

 

[johnloov]

Only have 1 Blackstone report from our FL5 which we changed at 858 miles so nothing to really show for that except a shit ton of moly, ZDDP additives etc. Will report more on our FL5 at 5k miles. It was then tuned (COBB used our FL5 for MY25 development) at 1,100-ish miles, tons of dyno time with COBB and protuner, and was broken in hot and fast when we bought it new. Quite a bit of high RPM engine braking to help piston rings seat better etc at that 858mi sample. Oil used was Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 with Liqui Moly MOS2 additive.

Heres our (daily) FK8 at 90k miles. Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 with Liqui Moly MOS2 additive every 5,000 miles for the past 50k-ish miles since we got it.

On the K20C1 we like to use either OEM Honda or Wix XP filters, BTW.

I saw the same thing. The initial moly was a lot from the break in oil that came factory filled.

Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 with Liqui Moly MOS2 additive - Very interesting combo!

How did you come up with that formula?

Curious in your logic to stay with 0W-20 vs go up to a 5w-30 - There is a lot of non scientific data driven heated controversy in the other forum threads, which I hope to scientifically prove and disprove. Please let me know - very very interested.

This second blackstone report with 3ppm - very impressive.

Aluminum down to 3ppm is great, that's better than mine!



Great Data!

 

[ctechauto]

I saw the same thing. The initial moly was a lot from the break in oil that came factory filled.

Motul 8100 Eco-Clean 0W20 with Liqui Moly MOS2 additive - Very interesting combo!

How did you come up with that formula?

This second blackstone report with 3ppm - very impressive.

Aluminum down to 3ppm is great, that's better than mine!



Great Data!

That 3ppm for aluminum is from our FK8 report.

Just preference really, at least on the Motul side. We are a Motul shop and prefer it. As far as the Motul + MOS2 combo, we had a 500+whp STI many many years back and it did well with that combo. Have applied it and recommended to our own shop/personal cars (including a fully dedicated track Cayman) and customers cars.

Also do have a report from our 3.5L ecoboost motor (Raptor) that compared not using MOS2 and using it, wear metals did decrease a measureable tick. So that confirms our suspicions and will continue to use that combo.

Also we dont feel its necessary to go up to a 5W-30. None of the reports have ever indicated that the Motul oils sheer below their original weight. Even on our track car in the 100⁰ Texas heat. Although we do change every few track days. Maybe if it was more extended between changes we'd go up to the Motul 300V though.

 

[johnloov]

And regarding going up to a 5w30 debate, why didn't you go thicker?

Can you share the exact amount you used of the Liqui Moly MOS2 additive?

 

[ctechauto]

And regarding going up to a 5w30 debate, why didn't you go thicker?

Can you share the exact amount you used of the Liqui Moly MOS2 additive?

I updated/edited that post above.

and the 300mL can is good for 3-6 liters of oil, so it just gets one can every oil change. Obviously account for that with regards to oil capacity.

 

[PNEUMA]

Do you guys think that adding LM MOs2, could ever be too early in our engine?
I just read that analysis shows that factory fill had a lot of moly in it, which leads me to believe that this would be okay to add to the first oil change out.
Your thoughts/opinion please?

 

[ctechauto]

Do you guys think that adding LM MOs2, could ever be too early in our engine?
I just read that analysis shows that factory fill had a lot of moly in it, which leads me to believe that this would be okay to add to the first oil change out.
Your thoughts/opinion please?

It certainly doesnt hurt. As mentioned, our first oil change at 858 miles on the FL5 we put in MOS2. Adding moly wont hurt. Only help - yes we have data on it helping.

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