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FL5 Type R is last one?

Shankmeyster

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If power generation continues to be a problem across the planet then that will definitely put the EV full changeover on hold.
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Gansan

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So can someone explain what 30% of materials in an EV are not recyclable? Like what kind of materials are contained in one that are chemically infeasible to reprocess? After all, they were processed in order to make the materials in the first place. Those same materials will now be in higher demand, which will create a ready market for recyclers who can profit from recovering them.
 

Gansan

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^ power grids cant handle it and what happens of power grid is attacked? Most electricity is created via oil, gas or coal, lol. Even if all of the ICE vehicles in the world immediately changed to EV it would only change the global temp by an estimated .02 degrees. Believe mw there is a shit ton more of these eye openers. The premise of EVs is complete BS - its all about politics- elect the right people folks and save the ICE.
You say that as if the fossil fuel industry isn't also completely political and has tons of politicians in their pockets and also spends billions on PR campaigns.

The whole point is that while a lot of electricity is generated using fossil fuels now, it doesn't HAVE to be generated that way. You have a long term choice to get away from the whole dino juice thing when it eventually runs out. You are also breaking away from the geopolitical mess of OPEC and achieving better energy independence.

For example, in San Diego, by default we are offered a 50% renewable/50% non-renewable mix and we're allowed to adjust what the balance is.

I'm saying all this as someone who owns only ICE cars and I'm sad and worried about their future.
 

mbaapk

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You say that as if the fossil fuel industry isn't also completely political and has tons of politicians in their pockets and also spends billions on PR campaigns.

The whole point is that while a lot of electricity is generated using fossil fuels now, it doesn't HAVE to be generated that way. You have a long term choice to get away from the whole dino juice thing when it eventually runs out. You are also breaking away from the geopolitical mess of OPEC and achieving better energy independence.

For example, in San Diego, by default we are offered a 50% renewable/50% non-renewable mix and we're allowed to adjust what the balance is.

I'm saying all this as someone who owns only ICE cars and I'm sad and worried about their future.
Then do it slowly, methodically and thoughtfully - not oh shit jump off a cliff the fn world is coming to an end kind of way. The kind of way that destroys economies and puts people out of work. BTW US has greatest oil/gas reserves in the world.
 

Rhorn

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Then do it slowly, methodically and thoughtfully - not oh shit jump off a cliff the fn world is coming to an end kind of way. The kind of way that destroys economies and puts people out of work. BTW US has greatest oil/gas reserves in the world.
So making an announcement to make EVs mandatory in a decade isn't doing it slowly, methodically and thoughtfully? 🤭
 


mbaapk

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So making an announcement to make EVs mandatory in a decade isn't doing it slowly, methodically and thoughtfully? 🤭
Have you seen energy policy?

No, it is not. Eight years is the blink of an eye to effectively transition the worlds transportation to another power source. Shit, it takes our state transit years to build a single rail line. We are talking about Governments here, come on man.

The order of operations should first and foremost be to build the power infrastructure and slowly transition via incentivized policy.

Thats without me commenting on the rationalization of doing it in the first place. The whole thing is seriously bonkers.
 

FL5ogger

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Have you seen energy policy?

We are talking about Governments here, come on man.
LOL.

You're right though! Right idea, but they are rushing the execution. This isn't localised to the US. The Australian capital has annouced the will be no ICE vehicles sold within the Australian Capital Territory (state where the capital is located) by 2035.
 

citrus

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So can someone explain what 30% of materials in an EV are not recyclable? Like what kind of materials are contained in one that are chemically infeasible to reprocess? After all, they were processed in order to make the materials in the first place. Those same materials will now be in higher demand, which will create a ready market for recyclers who can profit from recovering them.
The problem is, currently, procuring fresh raw materials now is substantially cheaper than recycling, which is why so little recycling happens. Think about how much raw material must be exhausted before recycling cost can reach parity (there will be pressure in both directions, but still). And then think about how expensive commodities will become as a result of all this, keeping in mind that the same materials used to build EV drivetrains are basically the same used to build and maintain eletricity infrastructure.

The order of operations should first and foremost be to build the power infrastructure and slowly transition via incentivized policy.
I think governments expect to see more blood from heatstroke and hypothermia before they'll actually rearrange their priorities. Consider that the largest EV market in the world (China) built it upon a basis of fraud and corruption.

There's really no democratic element to the current proliferation of EVs, if you ask me. If anything, the rhetoric is all to make people who already have the means feel better about making some decisions they would've made anyway, as opposed to actually making transportation more reliable, accessible, affordable, or sustainable.
 

Florence_NC

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So can someone explain what 30% of materials in an EV are not recyclable? Like what kind of materials are contained in one that are chemically infeasible to reprocess? After all, they were processed in order to make the materials in the first place. Those same materials will now be in higher demand, which will create a ready market for recyclers who can profit from recovering them.
Batteries. The single-largest component of an EV. And the ecologiaclly-dirtiest component to manufacture out of every technology in every current vehicle design. By a long shot. Recycling them is even dirtier.

And you seem to be making an assumption that, when a group of materials is converted into a different material, undoing that process is done with the same ease as the initial process. It is not. Every process is not equally reversible. Some processes are not reversible at all. Batteries are a shining example of these.

And as far as recycling goes, very little recycling is actually profitable. Most recycling only occurs due to government incentivization.
 

Gansan

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Batteries. The single-largest component of an EV. And the ecologiaclly-dirtiest component to manufacture out of every technology in every current vehicle design. By a long shot. Recycling them is even dirtier.

And you seem to be making an assumption that, when a group of materials is converted into a different material, undoing that process is done with the same ease as the initial process. It is not. Every process is not equally reversible. Some processes are not reversible at all. Batteries are a shining example of these.

And as far as recycling goes, very little recycling is actually profitable. Most recycling only occurs due to government incentivization.
I agree with you that very little recycling is profitable. Plastics, for example, are a famous failure of the market to address a need since the environmental and recycling cost is not factored into their prices. The result is, it's cheaper to make new instead of recycle.

The thing is, this is where policy (incentives like you said) can be useful. For example in CA we have a recycling deposit added to the cost of any aluminum can which is repaid when the aluminum is recycled. It makes it worthwhile to collect the cans and recycle them. Of course this is helped by the fact that melting down existing aluminum is waaay easier than extracting it from the ore, which needs a lot of electricity. You save CO2 emissions AND it's cheaper. Glass also has a similar deposit.

When you say "not reversible at all," I assume you mean in an economically feasible way and not in terms of the physics and chemistry involved in the separation. I honestly can't think of a chemical compound that can be considered "permanent" and can never be undone. I am not saying processes are easy to undo. Depending on what you're doing, obviously you might need to put energy into it, whether it's chemical energy, thermal energy, electrical if you're electrolyzing, or whatever.

I've only reviewed parts of it, but this analysis from the CA administration

https://calepa.ca.gov/wp-content/up...tery-Recycling-Advisory-Goup-Final-Report.pdf

goes into the logistics of recovering, transporting, and eventual recycling of used batteries. It also notes there are different CO2 emissions caused by different recycling processes. They list in the conclusion the difficulties and additional research needed. They also list existing LiIon battery recycling facilities in CA, so clearly some companies are already starting to do this.

Also interesting are the comments submitted by different people and organizations listed in the latter part of the report. Like the Automotive Recyclers Association which submitted super detailed opinions on how the process should work.

If we are going to address recyclability, it's clearly going to take some economic incentives to develop it. Sure there are disagreements with how fast to do it, that's a good debate to have. But around where I live Teslas seem to be the new Prius, so in a few years those used batteries are going to start piling up.

edit: The comments by The Cobalt Institute on where cobalt is mined, poverty related to small scale miningt, and also that it's "endlessly" recyclable are also interesting.
 
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TypeSiR

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11th Gen Honda Civic FL5 Type R is last one? 5CBB4BE4-4BE4-44E4-9503-ECD33BCE8708
 

citrus

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When you say "not reversible at all," I assume you mean in an economically feasible way and not in terms of the physics and chemistry involved in the separation. I honestly can't think of a chemical compound that can be considered "permanent" and can never be undone. I am not saying processes are easy to undo. Depending on what you're doing, obviously you might need to put energy into it, whether it's chemical energy, thermal energy, electrical if you're electrolyzing, or whatever.
I recommend reading more about how specific recycling processes work. The question of energy required isn't of "if," but is actually of "how much," and the answer is usually "very, very high." The chemistry is cool though. Have you seen NileRed's demonstrations?




 

007

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Rhorn

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Lol dude. The mandate is 2035. The proposal was orginally set in 2020, which means there was a 15 year prep phase. Im not even 30 years old, so that means for more than half of my life there is time to prepare

To say that's not enough time is ridiculous. 15 years was enough time for the advent of the internet and explosion of cell phones.
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