Type R Spring Track Day - May 24-25, 2025 VIR

[yeaitsahonda]

Ah. Good to know. My last time out in Nov of last year my PB was a 2:15.5. Friday I was in the 2:17's knocking off rust. I set a 2:13 by end of day Saturday after being mostly consistent in 2:15s. Sunday, I was 2:14-2:13s all day if there was no traffic.

Def looking for your take on this: Last year I ran Carbotech XP12 front and XP10 rears. After 2.5 days, the XP12's were down to maybe 30% left. I was NOT happy as I expected better life. Rather than miss a half day, I bought a set of Endless MX72+ from a guy who had them new in box for like $100 just so I could finish my day. They were OK but I didnt love them.

This year, I called at brake guy I got my XP12 from and I talked to Mike at Carbotech. Both said I should have gotten more life out of the XP12 but said this time I should try they XP20 as they should last 2x longer and were only $20 more than the XP12 (I got the fronts for $260). After Fridays session, I was pissed at the wear. I called my brake guy and he couldnt make heads or tails of it and neither could @PointByPatrol. I was having dinner with some of the guys and one of them (I can't remember his handle here) mentioned the brake shields. I told @PointByPatrol later back at our AirBNB and he agreed that was it. He assumed I had pulled them off and I didn't know I had to remove them.

I'm all for trying a new pad but I do feel like I didn't give the Carbotech's a fair shake if this was truly the issue. There are a few instructors and endurance guys I know who swear by Carbotech. The being said, the Endless felt pretty good. I couldnt quite go as deep but they never gave out like I remember them doing last year. That being said @yeaitsahonda was running 2-3 second faster and he was the only one faster then me with a similar setup (stock engine, 200TW tires) but he's running counterspace garage pads that cost significantly more and blanks vs the OEM 2pc. @PointByPatrol runs an AP Racing BBK so his car and pace isn't a close comparison.

I am all for trying a new pad next time. I went with Carbo based on recommendations and because I am able get a 10% discount. I also run their 1521 street pad so keeping the same compound made switching pads easy as there was no need to rebed anything.

I am back at VIR for 2-3 days in Sept.

FWIW I went with the CSG pads because of @J1Avs review of them. I loved them. I'll get you a measurement today since I forgot to get one before leaving the track.

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[yeaitsahonda]

Your hands are so light in the esses! I grip up through there!

Just gotta let the car float around a little bit and go where it wants to.

 

[yeaitsahonda]

@Djseto my front brakes are at 8.5-9mm now. I think they were 9.5ish when I measured them on Saturday. Also, thanks to you now I'm looking at intakes...

 

[svvitch]

Just gotta let the car float around a little bit and go where it wants to.

My car wants to eat some grass in turn 1!

 

[BigBird]

My car wants to eat some grass in turn 1!

Midwestern Grass Fed Diet

 

[yeaitsahonda]

My car wants to eat some grass in turn 1!

My Miata wanted to take a dip in the Dan River outside of Hog Pen one time. Who am I to stop it?

 

[TW00Si]

Fellas, had an amazing time hanging with you all. It was very cool to share the track experience with so many Honda fans. Looking forward to seeing you all again. So many beautiful builds. Happy we all made it home in one piece and thanks for letting me crash the party.
Now enjoy a couple vids. (The one is me following Rico) The other is my best lap.

Thanks Tim. This one is for you!

 

[svvitch]

Thanks Tim. This one is for you!

This the lap you forgot to slow a little for the uphill esses?

 

[Rexpelagi]

@PointByPatrol had the same issue in the past. My braking habits are pretty solid for this track now. I’ve logged over 1000 miles at VIR over the last 5 years. The XP20 is a very aggressive track pad. It was 12mm to start and after one day, about (6) 25 min sessions, I was down to 6mm driver and 5mm passenger. This is with vsa and tcs off (type r mode + long press).

The two straights at VIR can get to 135mph+ and they require hard braking down to 45-55mph. I don’t drag my brakes but I do trail brake into a few corners but on the straights, I do brake late and hard. As soon as the shields came off, I had zero issues and more consistent brakes all weekend with a “lesser” pad in the Endless.

I don't know if this is supported by science but I've struggled in other cars in the past with some of the more-aggressive pads where even with good fluid they just didn't mesh well with factory braking systems. They seemed to throw way too much heat into the system in a way that it wasn't designed for and overheat even SRF, and just make a mess of everything. I've had better luck running more moderate pads since.

I see the XP20 has a temp range of 275-2000ºF+ (135-1093ºC+), and a mu (from what I could find) of 0.68 - based on what I've experienced before I probably wouldn't run those - it seems really aggressive for a stock system - really high heat and friction, and if the stock system can't manage that I could see a situation where you accumulate massive system temps and then just start melting the pad off (although I'd think you'd have other issues more noticeable by that point) - I believe wear rate will go up significantly with temperature.

This chart from EBC may help illustrate that - notice how much the wear rate increases with temp (obviously their pads, but the trend likely holds with other pads):

Based on this, I'm not necessarily surprised the less-aggressive pad was better, as it may have run at much lower temps.

For contrast, so far I've run R5 front/rear - the temp range is 212°F - 1382°F (100°C - 750°C), and a mu of .43. I don't know that I have a good analog for VIR, but for me the fronts lasted ~25 track sessions and a handful of autocross runs - they still have a little life left but I just changed them our over the weekend. Each session was probably ~15min, with max speeds ranging from 120mph (CMP) to 145mph (RAtl), however unfortunately none of of them really have the back-to-back high speed runs like VIR does.

Moving forward, I'm going to try the EBC RPX on the front (just to try something different, nothing necessarily I'm trying to fix, but if I can get a little more bite it won't hurt) - mu of 0.5 at 0° C and still holding similar mu at 800°C, so similar to the R5 just with a bit better temp performance range and higher friction, but still well under the XP20. Hopefully these work well also, but time will tell.

All that said, I'm not a braking engineer, so this is just my experience, and I'm lurking in this thread for updates due to missing out on this one .

 

[m3bs]

Thermal conductivity is a seldom discussed characteristic of brake pad compounds. I ran PFC 90, 91, 01 and 08 for 20 years on my M3 and never had a fluid issue. I tried a set of G-Loc R12 and while the stopping power was great, I boiled my fluid at Road Atlanta. I tried to discuss it with G-Loc but they refused to take or return my calls. I gave up after a month…. I am now a firm believer in Ferodo DS3.12. Not cheap, but great pads.

 

[svvitch]

I don't know if this is supported by science but I've struggled in other cars in the past with some of the more-aggressive pads where even with good fluid they just didn't mesh well with factory braking systems. They seemed to throw way too much heat into the system in a way that it wasn't designed for and overheat even SRF, and just make a mess of everything. I've had better luck running more moderate pads since.

I see the XP20 has a temp range of 275-2000ºF+ (135-1093ºC+), and a mu (from what I could find) of 0.68 - based on what I've experienced before I probably wouldn't run those - it seems really aggressive for a stock system - really high heat and friction, and if the stock system can't manage that I could see a situation where you accumulate massive system temps and then just start melting the pad off (although I'd think you'd have other issues more noticeable by that point) - I believe wear rate will go up significantly with temperature.

This chart from EBC may help illustrate that - notice how much the wear rate increases with temp (obviously their pads, but the trend likely holds with other pads):

Based on this, I'm not necessarily surprised the less-aggressive pad was better, as it may have run at much lower temps.

For contrast, so far I've run R5 front/rear - the temp range is 212°F - 1382°F (100°C - 750°C), and a mu of .43. I don't know that I have a good analog for VIR, but for me the fronts lasted ~25 track sessions and a handful of autocross runs - they still have a little life left but I just changed them our over the weekend. Each session was probably ~15min, with max speeds ranging from 120mph (CMP) to 145mph (RAtl), however unfortunately none of of them really have the back-to-back high speed runs like VIR does.

Moving forward, I'm going to try the EBC RPX on the front (just to try something different, nothing necessarily I'm trying to fix, but if I can get a little more bite it won't hurt) - mu of 0.5 at 0° C and still holding similar mu at 800°C, so similar to the R5 just with a bit better temp performance range and higher friction, but still well under the XP20. Hopefully these work well also, but time will tell.

All that said, I'm not a braking engineer, so this is just my experience, and I'm lurking in this thread for updates due to missing out on this one .

Hey Rex check out the SR series as well: What’s So Special about the All-New SR-Series Sintered Race Pads? - EBC Brakes I daily my SR-11 which is nice they're capable of daily + track and long lasting.

 

[Djseto]

@Djseto my front brakes are at 8.5-9mm now. I think they were 9.5ish when I measured them on Saturday. Also, thanks to you now I'm looking at intakes...

interesting data point. Sounds like these pads just not may play well with the OEM system. Def curious what @J1Avs comes back with. Im likley going to go another pad for VIR weekend in September.

 

[StingertimeNC]

Thanks Tim. This one is for you!

Thanks Rico. Love it. First time I've seen it on track.

 

[Rexpelagi]

Thermal conductivity is a seldom discussed characteristic of brake pad compounds. I ran PFC 90, 91, 01 and 08 for 20 years on my M3 and never had a fluid issue. I tried a set of G-Loc R12 and while the stopping power was great, I boiled my fluid at Road Atlanta. I tried to discuss it with G-Loc but they refused to take or return my calls. I gave up after a month…. I am now a firm believer in Ferodo DS3.12. Not cheap, but great pads.

the G-Loc R12 has a temperature range of 173°F to 1860°F (78°C to 1015°C), so it's getting close to the XP20 (although I can't find the friction coefficient, doesn't seem to be published), whereas PFC 08 (as an example) is in the 100°C to ~800°C range from what I can tell, and is probably in the RPX/R5 range for friction (although that's a guess), so it may not be thermal conductivity so much as just the heat it's introducing as I suggested above.

Since all the pad does (and the brake system generally) is change kinetic energy to thermal energy, I think it makes sense that if you have very high friction coefficient, your rate of heat introduction to the system is going to be proportionately higher, and from my experience it certainly feels like that's where I've run into issues before, because the factory system can't dissipate heat at that rate. Once you move away from the factory system with ducting/BBK/etc (generally speaking, not Type R specific), then I think you can run those super aggressive pads without these types of issues.

 

[m3bs]

The total energy dissipated from a given speed is the same, and the peak deceleration rate is limited by tires in most track/race setups. The PFCs don’t conduct as much heat so the rotors get hotter and the caliper stays cooler. Rotors crack heavily, though…. The Ferodos seem to strike a happy medium….

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