To Lower or Not to Lower?

[scottjua]

If you don't mind the stock ride height look then there's no need to lower it. I'm lowered on spoon springs and can confidently say that it does not negatively impact the performance. My lap times in fact got faster but 99.9% sure its because of seat time. Overall, the spoon springs didn't make the ride more uncomfortable just might scrape a bit more. But the looks to me, makes it all worth it.

What did you end up with for alignment specs after the springs? Did you do camber arms?

Coming from Subarus for the past 20 years I have to re-learn everything for this car too, and I have spoon springs sitting in the box because I’m not sure what I need to do to keep stock or better handling with the drop. I don’t want to introduce a ton of understeer…

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[T41WN.1]

What did you end up with for alignment specs after the springs? Did you do camber arms?

Coming from Subarus for the past 20 years I have to re-learn everything for this car too, and I have spoon springs sitting in the box because I’m not sure what I need to do to keep stock or better handling with the drop. I don’t want to introduce a ton of understeer…

I just aligned it to stock specs. I think front was -1.5 and rear was -2. I'm being honest, I highly doubt you will feel any difference in handling. Positive or negative, its too minimal for it to actually translate.

No camber arms installed too. I am considering sway bars though, but not in a rush to do that as I feel like I haven't even gotten close to the limit on track yet before I need to make improvements.

 

[optronix]

I just aligned it to stock specs. I think front was -1.5 and rear was -2. I'm being honest, I highly doubt you will feel any difference in handling. Positive or negative, its too minimal for it to actually translate.

No camber arms installed too. I am considering sway bars though, but not in a rush to do that as I feel like I haven't even gotten close to the limit on track yet before I need to make improvements.

I could not disagree more- but context is important.

The only way I can reconcile with this assessment is in a DE setting, it may not be as painfully obvious as autocross. My camber was pretty much exactly the same after the springs install- -1.5 in the front, -2 in the rear- and I'll concede that I did not take my car to a DE with the "shitty" camber settings after the springs install. Main reason though is I couldn't STAND the way the car behaved during my first autocross and had to correct the problem IMMEDIATELY. It's not fun at all when the car just WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO, especially after you got used to how it behaves OEM. Super frustrating, to the point I thought I might need to move on from the car. Until the lower ball joints were installed- now I love it again, more than OEM.

But DEs on an actual racetrack, perhaps the understeer doesn't present itself in such an obvious way as doing extremely tight low-speed turns like autocross. In fact, it might actually be a slight advantage? You'd probably have to be a pretty experience driver to take the car to the limits where you're routinely inducing lift-off oversteer in a track setting. The one DE I went to when the car was completely stock, I noticed as my pace improved that it was one of the true joys of this platform is being able to control oversteer with the throttle in an "inverse" way to a RWD car- I found it immensely fun that directly correlated with my lap times as well.

For reference I'd put myself soundly in the "intermediate" group from a DE perspective. Plenty left to grow, but I need a point-by from novice drivers in much faster cars pretty routinely.

I think in that sense from a novice driver perspective, I could probably agree that it wouldn't be that noticeable, and could even effectively raise the limits of the car in a relatively safe manner for learning. I've said many times I didn't notice the understeer at all on the street after the springs install. Maybe that applies to up to 6-7/10ths track driving as well.

But I don't know what other way to say this- there is DEFINITELY more understeer if you leave the camber settings as they sit after lowering the car. Physics don't lie.

 

[FL5CW]

I could not disagree more- but context is important.

The only way I can reconcile with this assessment is in a DE setting, it may not be as painfully obvious as autocross. My camber was pretty much exactly the same after the springs install- -1.5 in the front, -2 in the rear- and I'll concede that I did not take my car to a DE with the "shitty" camber settings after the springs install. Main reason though is I couldn't STAND the way the car behaved during my first autocross and had to correct the problem IMMEDIATELY. It's not fun at all when the car just WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO, especially after you got used to how it behaves OEM. Super frustrating, to the point I thought I might need to move on from the car. Until the lower ball joints were installed- now I love it again, more than OEM.

But DEs on an actual racetrack, perhaps the understeer doesn't present itself in such an obvious way as doing extremely tight low-speed turns like autocross. In fact, it might actually be a slight advantage? You'd probably have to be a pretty experience driver to take the car to the limits where you're routinely inducing lift-off oversteer in a track setting. The one DE I went to when the car was completely stock, I noticed as my pace improved that it was one of the true joys of this platform is being able to control oversteer with the throttle in an "inverse" way to a RWD car- I found it immensely fun that directly correlated with my lap times as well.

For reference I'd put myself soundly in the "intermediate" group from a DE perspective. Plenty left to grow, but I need a point-by from novice drivers in much faster cars pretty routinely.

I think in that sense from a novice driver perspective, I could probably agree that it wouldn't be that noticeable, and could even effectively raise the limits of the car in a relatively safe manner for learning. I've said many times I didn't notice the understeer at all on the street after the springs install. Maybe that applies to up to 6-7/10ths track driving as well.

But I don't know what other way to say this- there is DEFINITELY more understeer if you leave the camber settings as they sit after lowering the car. Physics don't lie.

Agree with this. Need more camber up front.

 

[T41WN.1]

I could not disagree more- but context is important.

The only way I can reconcile with this assessment is in a DE setting, it may not be as painfully obvious as autocross. My camber was pretty much exactly the same after the springs install- -1.5 in the front, -2 in the rear- and I'll concede that I did not take my car to a DE with the "shitty" camber settings after the springs install. Main reason though is I couldn't STAND the way the car behaved during my first autocross and had to correct the problem IMMEDIATELY. It's not fun at all when the car just WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL IT TO, especially after you got used to how it behaves OEM. Super frustrating, to the point I thought I might need to move on from the car. Until the lower ball joints were installed- now I love it again, more than OEM.

But DEs on an actual racetrack, perhaps the understeer doesn't present itself in such an obvious way as doing extremely tight low-speed turns like autocross. In fact, it might actually be a slight advantage? You'd probably have to be a pretty experience driver to take the car to the limits where you're routinely inducing lift-off oversteer in a track setting. The one DE I went to when the car was completely stock, I noticed as my pace improved that it was one of the true joys of this platform is being able to control oversteer with the throttle in an "inverse" way to a RWD car- I found it immensely fun that directly correlated with my lap times as well.

For reference I'd put myself soundly in the "intermediate" group from a DE perspective. Plenty left to grow, but I need a point-by from novice drivers in much faster cars pretty routinely.

I think in that sense from a novice driver perspective, I could probably agree that it wouldn't be that noticeable, and could even effectively raise the limits of the car in a relatively safe manner for learning. I've said many times I didn't notice the understeer at all on the street after the springs install. Maybe that applies to up to 6-7/10ths track driving as well.

But I don't know what other way to say this- there is DEFINITELY more understeer if you leave the camber settings as they sit after lowering the car. Physics don't lie.

There you go. I'm still a beginner so defintely don't feel all the difference that the autocross drivers do. Just giving my POV from a beginner track driver and more from a street driving perspective

Hopefully I become good enough on track to feel all these negatives to force me to adjust my setup lol

 

[dank82]

Honestly, before proceeding any further you should watch this video, just be aware it's generalized and many of the concepts covered there are no current parts existing to correct- but just to be aware of for edification:



For our platform specifically though, if you do the appropriate camber modifications the car will handle better. But that will be because of the camber, not the springs, and there will always be slight compromises- whether it's "good" or "bad" is probably up to an individual. Because it will be "different"... but in subtle ways. It will look better, will not ruin the car (unless you do nothing and leave the camber as it is after the springs...)- but if you're looking for distinct performance improvements and don't care as much about aesthetics you're better off leaving the car stock, honestly.

Just one other thing to make sure you're aware of- you mention rear camber arms but also suggest your plan is to "get an alignment" to get -2.0 degrees of front camber. You can't hit -2 degrees without lower ball joints or camber plates. There is no factory adjustment for camber. And FYSA lower ball joints are kind of the only show in town if you don't want to also do coilovers, but you're limited to 1 full degree increments; so basically you can have -1 or -2 degrees MORE negative camber. So -2 total front camber is actually kind of tricky to hit. -2.5 is probably where you'll be if you lower and use the "middle setting".

Worth mentioning there's the informal method of stripping out the strut tower alignment pins and loosening all the bolts in the suspension and pushing/pulling to literally squeeze out a bit more camber. Some YouTubers may claim you could get to -2 that way, and theoretically it may be possible. All this to say now you know you can't drop it off at a Pep Boys and tell them to put it to -2...

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yeah I've read about people pulling the alignment pins to get additional camber, does sound a bit tricky. Heck, I may even go to MotoIQ since they are somewhat local lol.

But now I'm actually seriously considering just going the coilover route and foregoing the springs. Since I've already sharpened up the stability and chassis movement a bit with all the braces, and also planning on the Hasport full mount kit + Spoon rigid collars, it might be best just going to straight coilovers...

 

[dank82]

As an aside, how do you like the car with the Cusco braces, and how's the difference on the street?

I like them a lot. Sharpness, turn-in, responsiveness, body roll, stability all improved a bit. Makes you confident to throw the car around and hit turns at speed. Definitely worthwhile additions IMO if you're chasing the same thing. The Cusco RSB helps the rear wake up a bit, so I'm a little more cautious about lift-off oversteer.

I recently jailbroke it too with Hondata, running the 91 OTS tune at the moment. For me personally it's cool, but I do kind of miss the stock ECU calibration to be honest. The torque and power band really hit harder in 3rd + 4th, but the throttle response is dulled a little bit at the lower RPMs compared to stock. Probably all fixable with a decent tune though.

 

[Jack90210]

I like them a lot. Sharpness, turn-in, responsiveness, body roll, stability all improved a bit. Makes you confident to throw the car around and hit turns at speed. Definitely worthwhile additions IMO if you're chasing the same thing. The Cusco RSB helps the rear wake up a bit, so I'm a little more cautious about lift-off oversteer.

I recently jailbroke it too with Hondata, running the 91 OTS tune at the moment. For me personally it's cool, but I do kind of miss the stock ECU calibration to be honest. The torque and power band really hit harder in 3rd + 4th, but the throttle response is dulled a little bit at the lower RPMs compared to stock. Probably all fixable with a decent tune though.

I'm chasing exactly that. Planned/completed mod list: braces, rigid collars, RMM, anti-lift kit w/compliance bushing, OEM forged accessory wheels, DSC module, and hard rubber bushings throughout.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

 

[optronix]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yeah I've read about people pulling the alignment pins to get additional camber, does sound a bit tricky. Heck, I may even go to MotoIQ since they are somewhat local lol.

But now I'm actually seriously considering just going the coilover route and foregoing the springs. Since I've already sharpened up the stability and chassis movement a bit with all the braces, and also planning on the Hasport full mount kit + Spoon rigid collars, it might be best just going to straight coilovers...

It will allow you to skip a step especially if you end up visiting the track frequently. I don't necessarily regret doing springs because I wanted to at least attempt to keep the adaptive dampers, but at this point I do wish I went straight to coilovers.

For me the other primary reason to do coilovers is to use camber plates for camber adjustment vs lower ball joints. I want to use the lower ball joint for the roll center correction. Still need to find a way to do the same for the tie rod ends though.

 

[dank82]

I'm chasing exactly that. Planned/completed mod list: braces, rigid collars, RMM, anti-lift kit w/compliance bushing, OEM forged accessory wheels, DSC module, and hard rubber bushings throughout.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

Nice, right on! I'll sell you my DSC module if you still need to buy one, just shoot me a message. It's brand new, just tested it out one time, but ultimately went with the DE5 module for ease of use and comfort.

 

[dank82]

It will allow you to skip a step especially if you end up visiting the track frequently. I don't necessarily regret doing springs because I wanted to at least attempt to keep the adaptive dampers, but at this point I do wish I went straight to coilovers.

For me the other primary reason to do coilovers is to use camber plates for camber adjustment vs lower ball joints. I want to use the lower ball joint for the roll center correction. Still need to find a way to do the same for the tie rod ends though.

Plus, with coilovers you can always just throw the stock struts back on if you decide. Springs throw a wrench in that plan.

 

[optronix]

Plus, with coilovers you can always just throw the stock struts back on if you decide. Springs throw a wrench in that plan.

It's easier, but not a huge detractor. I still have my OEM springs, but I'd need to buy new bump stops. They're not expensive but it's still a lot of work vs unbolting a few things and replacing the entire assembly.

 

[Jack90210]

Nice, right on! I'll sell you my DSC module if you still need to buy one, just shoot me a message. It's brand new, just tested it out one time, but ultimately went with the DE5 module for ease of use and comfort.

Already have mine installed, but I appreciate the offer.

 

[dank82]

Already have mine installed, but I appreciate the offer.

I was not a fan of their software install/directions. Very janky and could be way more streamlined than what they provide online, especially for the price.

 

[Chilly613]

It will allow you to skip a step especially if you end up visiting the track frequently. I don't necessarily regret doing springs because I wanted to at least attempt to keep the adaptive dampers, but at this point I do wish I went straight to coilovers.

For me the other primary reason to do coilovers is to use camber plates for camber adjustment vs lower ball joints. I want to use the lower ball joint for the roll center correction. Still need to find a way to do the same for the tie rod ends though.

There are aftermarket camber plates that you can use with the OEM suspension or lowering springs. The one I'm familiar with is from Ballade Sports, you would have to swap to the FK8 spring seat to use them on the FL5.

https://balladesports.com/products/ballade-sports-17-civic-type-r-fk8-front-camber-plate-kit

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