To Lower or Not to Lower?

[MooMoo]

Exactly. I was aware of the ballade units, but didn't trust it would actually work with OEM strut assemblies- at least until someone else validated it on an FL5 or DE5.

I haven't really validated fully myself honestly, but I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that sakebomb plates and ohlins r&t are confirmed to work with this platform. @ctechauto going out on a limb but it might have been you I recalled went this route?

A few people do have plates on coilovers, diameter on the coilovers is much smaller. I have seen people able to get -2.6 on spoon and eibachs I believe but then not sure if they track the car so its hard to trust the data. I would need to hear from someone that did some extensive track time since the will rub at full compression. I did see someone that was even rubbing at -2.2 on stock springs and I believe hard race plates.

imo not worth the gamble because alignments not cheap and most importantly anything involving changing the front struts is a pita

Sponsored

 

[ctechauto]

Exactly. I was aware of the ballade units, but didn't trust it would actually work with OEM strut assemblies- at least until someone else validated it on an FL5 or DE5.

I haven't really validated fully myself honestly, but I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that sakebomb plates and ohlins r&t are confirmed to work with this platform. @ctechauto going out on a limb but it might have been you I recalled went this route?

Yep on our shop FL5 we have Ohlins R&T + Sakebomb camber plates AND Whiteline LBJs.

We are working with another local company (very well known in the track and race community) as well on early development of a stock/OEM strut compatible camber plate (and a variant for not specifically Ohlins, so a broader range of coilovers).

Dont get me wrong, I wish we could engage Sakebomb more for development but we are halfway across the US.

BTW the FL5 platform and chassis (specific to suspension) is the same as FK8.

 

[MooMoo]

This is great. BMW has tons of camber plate choices and from excellent companies, vorslag, TCKline which is what I had, ground control, millway and the list goes on.
Different versions too with some with bushings that are more street friendly and won’t creek.

 

[ctechauto]

This is great. BMW has tons of camber plate choices and from excellent companies, vorslag, TCKline which is what I had, ground control, millway and the list goes on.
Different versions too with some with bushings that are more street friendly and won’t creek.

They will be a familiar name to you then

 

[optronix]

Yep on our shop FL5 we have Ohlins R&T + Sakebomb camber plates AND Whiteline LBJs.

We are working with another local company (very well known in the track and race community) as well on early development of a stock/OEM strut compatible camber plate (and a variant for not specifically Ohlins, so a broader range of coilovers).

Dont get me wrong, I wish we could engage Sakebomb more for development but we are halfway across the US.

BTW the FL5 platform and chassis (specific to suspension) is the same as FK8.

Good stuff.

While you're at it, can you petition for more parts around correcting the geometry after lowering? Kind of curious why you went with the lower ball joints in combination with the camber plates when you could have used that spot for the whiteline roll center correctors... but there's still the tie rods to consider for bump steer as well.

I like seeing the signs of continued development though. But also surprise that nothing exists for some categories (e.g., tie rod ends) especially since the FK8 has been around for quite some time.

Actually I think Whiteline has a set of camber adjustable AND roll center correcting ball joints for other civic platforms but not the FK8/FL5/DE5. Weird.

 

[ctechauto]

Good stuff.

While you're at it, can you petition for more parts around correcting the geometry after lowering? Kind of curious why you went with the lower ball joints in combination with the camber plates when you could have used that spot for the whiteline roll center correctors... but there's still the tie rods to consider for bump steer as well.

I like seeing the signs of continued development though. But also surprise that nothing exists for some categories (e.g., tie rod ends) especially since the FK8 has been around for quite some time.

Actually I think Whiteline has a set of camber adjustable AND roll center correcting ball joints for other civic platforms but not the FK8/FL5/DE5. Weird.

Are you talking about the RC/ bump steer ball joint like the Spoon/whiteline?

If so, that goes on the LCA to knuckle (circled). The camber LBJ is a different part and that goes from knuckle (or rather the "wishbone" part of dual-axis design to the hub (its got a huge plate on it above it in this pic). The other civic platforms is not a dual-axis suspension design (I believe its a 3-bolt balljoint to the LCA there).

Although I do wish there was a motorsport style design for the tie rod ends - clamp design (not just a nut), heim/rose joints and misalignment bushings.

 

[optronix]

Are you talking about the RC/ bump steer ball joint like the Spoon/whiteline?

If so, that goes on the LCA to knuckle (circled). The camber LBJ is a different part and that goes from knuckle (or rather the "wishbone" part of dual-axis design to the hub (its got a huge plate on it above it in this pic). The other civic platforms is not a dual-axis suspension design (I believe its a 3-bolt balljoint to the LCA there).

Although I do wish there was a motorsport style design for the tie rod ends - clamp design (not just a nut), heim/rose joints and misalignment bushings.

Ok, that is immensely helpful. I've asked this question multitudes of times and never got a straight answer. There's an email in someone's inbox at Whiteline that's been there for months that could have been cleared up (resulting in a sale) by this one pic you just showed- or an explanation. I guess I didn't do the appropriate type of research, because now I'm thinking any sort of diagram would have helped me figure this out. But it came down to someone just knowing wtf they're talking about with this specific suspension geometry.

I wish you were local, you'd have my business as a certainty.

And yes, the non-dual axis civic kits come with all the above:

https://shop.redline360.com/product...fe-fl-2016-2025-extended-tie-rods-ball-joints

So now I'm looking at the kit, it's listed on the website as exclusive to the FK8. I'm not sure that's accurate.

https://whitelineperformance.com/us...-honda-civic-type-r-10th-gen-9986-kca525.html

Here's K-tuned with their version listed as FK8/FL5/DE5: https://k-tuned.com/products/roll-center-adjusters-civic-type-r-fk8

Spoon explicitly lists theirs for the FK8 as well. Probably why I wasn't aware they offered one. I see that's where the picture came from.

https://spoonusa.com/spoon-zero-bump-steer-kit-front-civic-fk8

Also notably it looks like the K Tuned version is 10mm, the Spoon is 4mm. Whiteline doesn't list a measurement (or at least I didn't see it).

I'm wondering why the discrepancy with the site listings and the measurements?

And why it's so difficult to get a response from the manufacturers.

 

[AspecR]

Ok, that is immensely helpful. I've asked this question multitudes of times and never got a straight answer. There's an email in someone's inbox at Whiteline that's been there for months that could have been cleared up (resulting in a sale) by this one pic you just showed- or an explanation. I guess I didn't do the appropriate type of research, because now I'm thinking any sort of diagram would have helped me figure this out. But it came down to someone just knowing wtf they're talking about with this specific suspension geometry.

I wish you were local, you'd have my business as a certainty.

And yes, the non-dual axis civic kits come with all the above:

https://shop.redline360.com/product...fe-fl-2016-2025-extended-tie-rods-ball-joints

So now I'm looking at the kit, it's listed on the website as exclusive to the FK8. I'm not sure that's accurate.

https://whitelineperformance.com/us...-honda-civic-type-r-10th-gen-9986-kca525.html

Here's K-tuned with their version listed as FK8/FL5/DE5: https://k-tuned.com/products/roll-center-adjusters-civic-type-r-fk8

Spoon explicitly lists theirs for the FK8 as well. Probably why I wasn't aware they offered one. I see that's where the picture came from.

https://spoonusa.com/spoon-zero-bump-steer-kit-front-civic-fk8

Also notably it looks like the K Tuned version is 10mm, the Spoon is 4mm. Whiteline doesn't list a measurement (or at least I didn't see it).

I'm wondering why the discrepancy with the site listings and the measurements?

And why it's so difficult to get a response from the manufacturers.

The whiteline version is +5mm IIRC.

 

[ctechauto]

Ok, that is immensely helpful. I've asked this question multitudes of times and never got a straight answer. There's an email in someone's inbox at Whiteline that's been there for months that could have been cleared up (resulting in a sale) by this one pic you just showed- or an explanation. I guess I didn't do the appropriate type of research, because now I'm thinking any sort of diagram would have helped me figure this out. But it came down to someone just knowing wtf they're talking about with this specific suspension geometry.

I wish you were local, you'd have my business as a certainty.

And yes, the non-dual axis civic kits come with all the above:

https://shop.redline360.com/product...fe-fl-2016-2025-extended-tie-rods-ball-joints

So now I'm looking at the kit, it's listed on the website as exclusive to the FK8. I'm not sure that's accurate.

https://whitelineperformance.com/us...-honda-civic-type-r-10th-gen-9986-kca525.html

Here's K-tuned with their version listed as FK8/FL5/DE5: https://k-tuned.com/products/roll-center-adjusters-civic-type-r-fk8

Spoon explicitly lists theirs for the FK8 as well. Probably why I wasn't aware they offered one. I see that's where the picture came from.

https://spoonusa.com/spoon-zero-bump-steer-kit-front-civic-fk8

Also notably it looks like the K Tuned version is 10mm, the Spoon is 4mm. Whiteline doesn't list a measurement (or at least I didn't see it).

I'm wondering why the discrepancy with the site listings and the measurements?

And why it's so difficult to get a response from the manufacturers.

I don't know the actual math formulas behind RC off-hand, but I do know it's based on things like the following:

1. Suspension (overall shock/strut length, even motion ratios - because it's not always you have a .5" shorter spring and it equates to a .5" drop and motion rates play the biggest part in choosing spring rates)
2. Track width
3. Links/Arms/Ball joint pivot/connection points
4. Hub/Spindle height
5. Wheel+Tire diameter height
etc

Which all goes to the +Xmm amount. Though, in theory, the longer the new ball joint is, you should be able to lower it even more than the shorter ones without throwing the RC out of stock specs again. But keep in mind, you don't always want to "fix" the RC back to factory/stock/OEM. It completely depends on your uses. Generally, a good rule of thumb here is:

Roll Center Guidelines

Application	Front RC Height	Rear RC Height	Characteristics
Street/Daily	2-4 inches	4-6 inches	Comfort, stability
Sport/Performance	1-3 inches	3-5 inches	Reduced body roll
Off-Road/Trail	3-6 inches	5-8 inches	Articulation, traction
Rock Crawling	4-8 inches	6-10 inches	Maximum flex
Racing/Autocross	0-2 inches	2-4 inches	Minimal roll, quick response

Take a look at the chart above, notice that racing is LESS roll center than street/daily. That is what I meant by you don't always want to "fix" it, unless you are trying to get back to as factory driving characteristics as you can. Adding a longer ball joint will then push the LCA back down and the hub/spindle back up. That is also why in track/racing, lowering the car and introducing a lower RC height is not a bad thing, in reality, it is welcomed. Bump steer is also personal preference and use case, and you can effectively "tune" that with alignment if you want. I will say using the camber LBJ will cause more noticeable affects of bump steer, tramlining, and darting characteristics because you are changing the angle where the hub, spindle and links pivot/attach (it even adds in a touch of track width too) especially compared to using camber plates and/or the top shock tower mounts holes (since they are slotted/ovaled) but can be minimized (or exacerbated if you want) by alignment settings.

Again, if it were me, I want to see a motorsport style design for the tie rod ends - clamp design (not just a nut), heim/rose joints and misalignment bushings. That can help with bump steer as much as tie rod articulation throughout the whole suspension cycle because we all know greased ball joints will be limited in articulation compared to heim/rose joints. But of course will introduce NVH and additional maintenance.

Any FK8 version will work with FL5. They are the same chassis (effectively). MFGs/vendors are not always very good at updating their websites.

Also hope this helps further:

And let me know if/when you decide on any particular parts. I'm happy to ship over to you!

 

[lflouie]

Hey all!

So I keep going back and forth with myself on this, but figured I'd post something to get some input...

I have a set of Eibach Pro Kits and the rear camber kit waiting to be installed, but keep thinking maybe I shouldn't go forward with it, as I don't want to mess with the handling too much on the FL5.

The initial plan was to pair both with some 275/35s, as well as install the Spoon rigid collars. Get an alignment similar to stock, or -2.0ish camber in the front, -1.5ish camber for the rear.

But then I think to myself, what if I don't like the way it handles? I drive mostly street and spirited quite a bit through twisties/hard turns, with some eventual track time planned, but I'm just wondering if I'm going to regret lowering springs at all.

For reference I've got a strut bar on the car, all the Cusco underbody braces and rear sway bar, and the PRL RMM currently.

Am I thinking about this the wrong way, or will I be able to make the car handle even better with the right alignment? I really like how the car handles right now, but it would look nicer a bit lower. Just don't want to compromise the handling piece.

I was considering doing some of the same upgrades as you have done and are considering. I ended up changing directions after spending more time with the CTR.

The question that you really need to ask yourself is ...what are you trying to fix and how best to do it. I came to the conclusion that the chassis stiffness was very good...so chassis stiffening was u necessary. Suspension was incredible for aggressive street and track...but pretty much unusable in +R on most surfaces (damping too stiff). For street applications lowering the car and changing the wheel offset was all esthetics bc it compromised the overall drivability for minimal performance increase ( IMO). I decided to go to a DSC suspension module, and I the process of a modest sway bar upgrade (Whiteline 22mm rear), and a Whiteline rear toe bar to allow more fine adjustment of rear camber/toe. I will also remove the front suspension stud and likely get - 0.3 to -0.5 additional camber and a good alignment. I'm getting a better ride, wider range of suspension, great handling, and superior grip.

 

[dank82]

I was considering doing some of the same upgrades as you have done and are considering. I ended up changing directions after spending more time with the CTR.

The question that you really need to ask yourself is ...what are you trying to fix and how best to do it. I came to the conclusion that the chassis stiffness was very good...so chassis stiffening was u necessary. Suspension was incredible for aggressive street and track...but pretty much unusable in +R on most surfaces (damping too stiff). For street applications lowering the car and changing the wheel offset was all esthetics bc it compromised the overall drivability for minimal performance increase ( IMO). I decided to go to a DSC suspension module, and I the process of a modest sway bar upgrade (Whiteline 22mm rear), and a Whiteline rear toe bar to allow more fine adjustment of rear camber/toe. I will also remove the front suspension stud and likely get - 0.3 to -0.5 additional camber and a good alignment. I'm getting a better ride, wider range of suspension, great handling, and superior grip.

Not really trying to "fix" anything per se, just improve the handling, responsiveness, and body movement. The springs were a serious consideration simply due to aesthetic and looks, rather than performance. But since they will likely alter overall suspension geometry and handling as well as be more work to install, I've decided to go with coilovers instead.

I run the DE5 damper module as the roads out here are terrible, and much prefer that coupled with +R mode all the time. I have the DSC module, but stuck with the DE5 just for ease of use, so it's for sale. I've also got the 22mm Cusco RSB which I moved over from my 10th gen. I had the 10th gen really dialed in, so even though the FL5 is leagues ahead, I'm chasing that same solidness I had on it.

 

[MooMoo]

I did springs because of how they look, period, I was never expecting any performance, specially with the H&Rs which are softer in the front, stiffer in the back. Car actually felt better but I think that was placebo or the extra negative camber up front.

I think its fine to want the car to look good, looking good makes you go faster lol. I have noticed nothing. negative so far from the H&Rs, honestly car drives exactly the same if not better (again placebo, but not worst). I also got a DSC to replace the ITS module. I actually though thought the ITS is better in sport on the street as its a bit too stiff in sport compared to ITS so I guess I will have to go to comfort on the street, however +R is fantastic on the DSC, a good improvement over the ITS imo, car feels more responsive to me... but of course I did so much stuff at the same time that I am not sure its the springs, camber or DSC (I installed springs and camber then DSC but just took car to lime rock auto cross and had everything installed then, I did not get to have a time to compared to last year unfortunately, I will next month and see how all this upgrades fair since LRP auto cross is always the same course, no cone crap)

 

[B16B]

I was in the same boat when I had Spoon springs, stiffening plate, and rigid collars sitting in my garage for a few months. I just pulled the trigger and installed everything.

 

[optronix]

I did springs because of how they look, period, I was never expecting any performance, specially with the H&Rs which are softer in the front, stiffer in the back. Car actually felt better but I think that was placebo or the extra negative camber up front.

I think its fine to want the car to look good, looking good makes you go faster lol. I have noticed nothing. negative so far from the H&Rs, honestly car drives exactly the same if not better (again placebo, but not worst). I also got a DSC to replace the ITS module. I actually though thought the ITS is better in sport on the street as its a bit too stiff in sport compared to ITS so I guess I will have to go to comfort on the street, however +R is fantastic on the DSC, a good improvement over the ITS imo, car feels more responsive to me... but of course I did so much stuff at the same time that I am not sure its the springs, camber or DSC (I installed springs and camber then DSC but just took car to lime rock auto cross and had everything installed then, I did not get to have a time to compared to last year unfortunately, I will next month and see how all this upgrades fair since LRP auto cross is always the same course, no cone crap)

Hey man, some of us love our cone crap.

No seriously, I love that autocross is different any given day you show up. Part of its appeal. Also I don't have to worry about insurance, brakes are not really a wear item concern, and the cost of entry is super low vs HPDE/TT.

The work-half-the-day thing I can see could be a deal-breaker for some folks...

But back on topic, the other thing about autocross in particular- the hyper-aggressive low speed cornering instantly reveals understeer. And I had a great benchmark of going from OEM settings one month, to post-springs settings the next month. And it was a startling contrast. I don't want to oversell the impact- it was JUST subtle enough during the early runs to where I was asking myself if I was just having an off day... but as the day progressed and I got more familiar with the course and more aggressive, it was undeniable. The car wasn't behaving the same it was the last time I was out.

I just had this discussion with someone (maybe even in this thread, tough to keep up), where they didn't notice the understeer during their track day after installing Spoon springs and their lap times actually improved- but also with the concession that they were novice drivers and just gaining skill and confidence rapidly. I think honestly in that setting some additional understeer may not just be less noticeable, but a possible advantage. This platform rotates very well. For someone getting to know the car and their own driving, I could see getting into a prickly situation coming in a little hot through a corner and having to learn very quickly what lift-off oversteer actually means. A little more negative camber in the rear than the front might actually help with that... but my only concern then would be in predictability. Then we start diving into the roll center geometry and things like that...

I think overall this platform is pretty forgiving and the springs on the market do not introduce a huge change in the overall geometry... but I'm here to tell you that for autocross applications in particular, you are definitely better off leaving it the way it is from the factory unless you are also prepared to address the camber issues that are introduced when you lower the car.

 

[MooMoo]

Hey man, some of us love our cone crap.

No seriously, I love that autocross is different any given day you show up. Part of its appeal. Also I don't have to worry about insurance, brakes are not really a wear item concern, and the cost of entry is super low vs HPDE/TT.

The work-half-the-day thing I can see could be a deal-breaker for some folks...

But back on topic, the other thing about autocross in particular- the hyper-aggressive low speed cornering instantly reveals understeer. And I had a great benchmark of going from OEM settings one month, to post-springs settings the next month. And it was a startling contrast. I don't want to oversell the impact- it was JUST subtle enough during the early runs to where I was asking myself if I was just having an off day... but as the day progressed and I got more familiar with the course and more aggressive, it was undeniable. The car wasn't behaving the same it was the last time I was out.

I just had this discussion with someone (maybe even in this thread, tough to keep up), where they didn't notice the understeer during their track day after installing Spoon springs and their lap times actually improved- but also with the concession that they were novice drivers and just gaining skill and confidence rapidly. I think honestly in that setting some additional understeer may not just be less noticeable, but a possible advantage. This platform rotates very well. For someone getting to know the car and their own driving, I could see getting into a prickly situation coming in a little hot through a corner and having to learn very quickly what lift-off oversteer actually means. A little more negative camber in the rear than the front might actually help with that... but my only concern then would be in predictability. Then we start diving into the roll center geometry and things like that...

I think overall this platform is pretty forgiving and the springs on the market do not introduce a huge change in the overall geometry... but I'm here to tell you that for autocross applications in particular, you are definitely better off leaving it the way it is from the factory unless you are also prepared to address the camber issues that are introduced when you lower the car.

Cone autox is great too I am sorry, didn't mean to be an asswipe lol. Was more on the I can actually get a time reference out of this since the course does not change. I will say this and so out of topic, my problem with traditional auto x is not working but the little runs you get. 5/6 runs to be there all day is too much for me on my weekend. This lime rock autox program (and tons of people that come to this also do traditional auto x) you get probably 30-45 min, sometimes an hour of seat time (seriously its crazy), and you are there for 4 hours its really nice.

Also I am running the DSC with the springs settings which I know you helped develop with DCS and +R feels amazing so good job on that! Clearly am upgrade to the ITS module, I was worried I just spent a bunch of money for not really much of an upgrade than the ITS but this feels even better

Sponsored