DE5 guy seeking suspension help!

[B Trip]

Pedal dance turns off agility assist, iirc.
Agility assist helps a ton with turn in, but can be tough on rear pads for track use.

With VSA on rear pad life expectancy is about 3 track days lol

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[Xian]

Yes. I’m getting the ball joints done today and going with max setting with some toe out.

don’t have the rear camber arms yet so I’ll be interested as to how the car reacts to an aggressive front camber paired with the stock rear setting




I’ve tried on and off. Doesn’t affect the front grip on corner exit



High speed entry, and exiting at all speeds. I use a Catalyst so no OBD data to share





VIR was about 50° so tires overheating wasn’t an issue. This lap I was 32psi hot. Understeer wasn’t so bad.

At Pocono it was about 75° I had to run really low pressure to get the grip to do the lap time I did (28 hot) and the tires were only good for about 2 laps before overheating. As you can imagine my sidewalls were not happy about that.

VIR was my first time on a track ever, Pocono was my 3rd. New to this, so any comments or critiques are appreciated. Really need to dial out that understeer tho. I imagine springs will help immensely.

Disclaimer: I haven’t tracked my FL5 but I’ve done autox, DE, DE instructing, and Club racing since ~2001.

With your very limited track experience, my bet is that most of the issue is driver inputs… which I can’t see on your videos. The Catalyst is great for lap times and whatnot but sucks when you’re trying to see driver inputs (unless you pull OBD data for steering/brake/throttle traces and even then a steering trace is tougher to decipher than watching how someone rolls in steering angle).

If you’re running stock tires, those pressures seem really low to me and may be exacerbating what you’re describing as push on entry. Push on exit with your power level is a “duh” sorta thing to me. You’ve got enough power/torque to easily overwhelm the front end.

PS
You heading to the GL event at Mid-O this weekend? They always run a fun weekend! I went to GL South at CMP a few months ago and I gave my FL5 to Adam for use as the safety car (while I got to deal with race contact peer reviews). LOL

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

I highly recommend the Spoon springs as a good compromise between street and occasional track use.
Typically I'm setting these cars up with around -3.5° up front, and -2 to -2.5° out back and getting very good temperatures across the tread.
You'll go from -1.5° to -2° naturally from lowering 20mm in the rear, so no need for camber arms unless you're chasing that extra -0.5°.
This set up should give you plenty of rotation.
The FL5 ADS module will reduce your body roll, but induce chassis oscillations in the higher speed higher g corners - which I find problematic. IMO you're best to stick with the DE5 ADS module.

 

[PointByPatrol]

I think that your wreck was the week after I was there. That spot on the track in particular worried me while driving. I mentioned it to a couple people that weekend. We had a 20-30 mph sustained headwind on the back straight that say so that affected lap time, and I lifted into turn 1 and into 3 due to the traffic.

I’ve tried a lot of pressure settings. Without the alignment I needed to run low up front for peak grip but i rolled over big time. Had the tires remounted today. Hopefully the new camber will allow me to run a low pressure and not ruin the tires. About to hit the road for Mid-Ohio this weekend With the new setup so I’ll report back on how it feels!

I wish you the best of luck, and safety in Ohio! You took the esses like a boss despite my wreck for sure. I had a similar wind in the esses when I wrecked. If you watch closely, the car never slowed despite being off throttle at T8, the rest was my mistake. I knew I was in too hot for my tires capabilities, and my personal skill level at the time, and the end result was the culmination of both. I saw the traffic that you encountered in the video. My tricks are in different spots. Happy to share if you'd like.

 

[J1Avs]

The car should rotate fine maxing out the camber joints without adding additional parts to the rear. I'm running -3.55* up front with the option for -3.8/.9* and -1.8* in the rear. Keep the tire pressure about 3psi higher in the rear, and you'll be golden.

If you continue to experience understeer, start looking internally at your driving, and not more mods. Most issues are induced by the driver, mods will just mask that. It's FWD, it can only do so many things at once.

Side note -- and I mentioned this on your VIR video. If you have an intercooler, you are not Sport 3 Legal with SCCA. That's a tuner mod, so you should be running Tuner 3.

 

[B Trip]

Hey everyone. Thanks to you all for the advice and info.

I‘m happy to report that the addition of front camber absolutely solved my understeer issue. -4.5 was perfect for Mid-O! I talked to a couple FWD guys who were also around -4.5 For this track. In fact i had to dial out the OVERSTEER By lowering the rear pressures. The car felt so amazingly balanced and planted.

I ended up with the 2nd fastest FWD time in street class to an FK8 with A LOT more power. Was disappointed in my fastest lap tho. I was being road rage tailed the rest of the lap by the GR86 I passed and was focused too much on my mirrors than the track ahead.

My optimal on the Catalyst for the day was 1:35.5 which would have been good for a podium, and the FWD lap record. Hopefully with more experience the consistency will follow.

Enjoy the video!

Integra Type S Fastest lap GRIDLIFE Mid-Ohio 6/30/24

 

[B Trip]

The car should rotate fine maxing out the camber joints without adding additional parts to the rear. I'm running -3.55* up front with the option for -3.8/.9* and -1.8* in the rear. Keep the tire pressure about 3psi higher in the rear, and you'll be golden.

If you continue to experience understeer, start looking internally at your driving, and not more mods. Most issues are induced by the driver, mods will just mask that. It's FWD, it can only do so many things at once.

Side note -- and I mentioned this on your VIR video. If you have an intercooler, you are not Sport 3 Legal with SCCA. That's a tuner mod, so you should be running Tuner 3.

I saw your comment and checked the rules. It was my first TT event and a friend said intercooler was fine For Sport class. Last time I listen to him! It probably didn’t help considering it was 50 out that day, but the PRL intercooler will be coming off for future SCCA TT events.

in fact, the more I research the more I start to think the intercooler was a waste of $$ due to blocking more of the radiator. The car gets very hot after about 5-6 laps. We DE5ers don’t have an oil temp gauge or an actual temp reading for coolant which sucks.

@Hondata if you see this, is there any way to get logR onto the DE5? Would also love to be able to have the +R gauges and the “everything off except active handling assist” VSA mode like you can get in the FL5 in +R

 

[BigBird]

Yes. I’m getting the ball joints done today and going with max setting with some toe out.

don’t have the rear camber arms yet so I’ll be interested as to how the car reacts to an aggressive front camber paired with the stock rear setting

I’ve tried on and off. Doesn’t affect the front grip on corner exit

I have asked a couple times now to the SCCA board, and just so you know the ball joins are currently illegal for Sport 3, they may change that in the future. rear arms are also illegal, don't see them changing that

I saw your comment and checked the rules. It was my first TT event and a friend said intercooler was fine For Sport class. Last time I listen to him! It probably didn’t help considering it was 50 out that day, but the PRL intercooler will be coming off for future SCCA TT events.

in fact, the more I research the more I start to think the intercooler was a waste of $$ due to blocking more of the radiator. The car gets very hot after about 5-6 laps. We DE5ers don’t have an oil temp gauge or an actual temp reading for coolant which sucks.

@Hondata if you see this, is there any way to get logR onto the DE5? Would also love to be able to have the +R gauges and the “everything off except active handling assist” VSA mode like you can get in the FL5 in +R

oil temps in these cars are calculated, there is no actual reading. Also intercooler does more harm than good with the options out right now. if it doesn't go into limp mode, you're fine is basically how it goes

also get better tires than 660. RE71RS or CR-S are your best bet.

Between the intercooler and ball joints, your car is now a T3 car

We don’t have a the 10 second VSA press setting in +r like you guys

i still use the pedal dance since I don't use +R as it's overly stiff

 

[BigBird]

I wonder if the pedal dance works on the ITS.

it does

 

[B Trip]

I have asked a couple times now to the SCCA board, and just so you know the ball joins are currently illegal for Sport 3, they may change that in the future. rear arms are also illegal, don't see them changing that



oil temps in these cars are calculated, there is no actual reading. Also intercooler does more harm than good with the options out right now. if it doesn't go into limp mode, you're fine is basically how it goes

also get better tires than 660. RE71RS or CR-S are your best bet.

Between the intercooler and ball joints, your car is now a T3 car


i still use the pedal dance since I don't use +R as it's overly stiff

My next set will be the CR-S. They are on back order but my friend has a connection.

Regarding the ball joints, I’ve asked about that also. It doesn’t make sense that camber plates are cool, yet ball joints aren’t.

Hopefully setting them back to the stock setting should negate any concerns with the rules. There is no performance benefit to after market otherwise. I will ask John Hunter about that and see what he says. If I need to put the old ones back on I certainly will. Whatever the case, my goal is to win S3 at NCM this year!

 

[ne_typer]

-4.5* is a lot, but I guess it makes sense on stock springs. Are you open to increasing spring rates across the board?

 

[J1Avs]

My next set will be the CR-S. They are on back order but my friend has a connection.

Regarding the ball joints, I’ve asked about that also. If you know Vijay Lorick, I believe he protested for the ball joints as well. It doesn’t make sense that camber plates are cool, yet ball joints aren’t.

Hopefully setting them back to the stock setting should negate any concerns with the rules. There is no performance benefit to after market otherwise. I will ask John Hunter about that and see what he says. If I need to put the old ones back on I certainly will. Whatever the case, my goal is to win S3 at NCM this year!

Unlikely you’ll be able to leave them in regardless of setting, because they would require someone verify your alignment specs, plus it gives you some adjustment to perfect that alignment with some flexibility you otherwise wouldn’t have. I don’t really agree with that, but these are the rules we have been given.

I just noticed FL5 was weirdly put into T2, which from my conversation last night, should be in T3…so I have to poke at that tomorrow. DE5 is showing as both T2 and T3, but Fastrack in April? Confirmed T3.

We don’t have SCCA TT much in the PNW at the moment, so I’m less annoyed at the decision to not allow camber joints in Sport…but on principal, I’m still pretty annoyed about it haha. I’m pretty certain someone on the TTB has a Max 3 FK8 also, so you‘d think there would be a sympathetic voice for it.

I think you are on the right path with the CRS. A bit more heat tolerant than the 71RS and definitely the A052, with a hyper stiff sidewall and some decent wear characteristics. I’ll be trying after the SC3 that I need for GTA Enthusiast. The 71RS were really nice, but even in 70*, they were falling off at the end of Lap 2. Wear was pretty decent for 3 hot laps a session over 11 sessions with a full rotation on critical corners between days, but it’s maybe a 4 day tire. $400/day in tires for non-competition— at least for me — is a tough sell. ECF are at like 7-8 hard days, pretty much full send for 15 minutes for 5 sessions per day. But, definitely wouldn’t use them for comp.

 

[AZCWTypeR]

Adding a little negative camber goes a long way, so I'd recommend adding it slowly.
I've had previous front drive cars with enough negative front camber to power oversteer. It was difficult to lift and rotate mid corner without spinning.

 

[BigBird]

Unlikely you’ll be able to leave them in regardless of setting, because they would require someone verify your alignment specs, plus it gives you some adjustment to perfect that alignment with some flexibility you otherwise wouldn’t have. I don’t really agree with that, but these are the rules we have been given.

I just noticed FL5 was weirdly put into T2, which from my conversation last night, should be in T3…so I have to poke at that tomorrow. DE5 is showing as both T2 and T3, but Fastrack in April? Confirmed T3.

We don’t have SCCA TT much in the PNW at the moment, so I’m less annoyed at the decision to not allow camber joints in Sport…but on principal, I’m still pretty annoyed about it haha. I’m pretty certain someone on the TTB has a Max 3 FK8 also, so you‘d think there would be a sympathetic voice for it.

I think you are on the right path with the CRS. A bit more heat tolerant than the 71RS and definitely the A052, with a hyper stiff sidewall and some decent wear characteristics. I’ll be trying after the SC3 that I need for GTA Enthusiast. The 71RS were really nice, but even in 70*, they were falling off at the end of Lap 2. Wear was pretty decent for 3 hot laps a session over 11 sessions with a full rotation on critical corners between days, but it’s maybe a 4 day tire. $400/day in tires for non-competition— at least for me — is a tough sell. ECF are at like 7-8 hard days, pretty much full send for 15 minutes for 5 sessions per day. But, definitely wouldn’t use them for comp.

Yeah no ball joints, again they were denied :\

GTA Enthusiast is a bit of a joke with 500 hp cars with built blocks and upgraded turbos allowed. Not much to be 'enthusiastic' about trying to use the #racecar vs racecars . Same thing in Gridlife Street. No way to seriously compete in a daily driver in what is supposed to be geared towards street cars.

This is an enthusiast build https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/news/fastfriday-an-already-fast-civic-type-r-racer-made-faster/

My next set will be the CR-S. They are on back order but my friend has a connection.

Regarding the ball joints, I’ve asked about that also. It doesn’t make sense that camber plates are cool, yet ball joints aren’t.

Hopefully setting them back to the stock setting should negate any concerns with the rules. There is no performance benefit to after market otherwise. I will ask John Hunter about that and see what he says. If I need to put the old ones back on I certainly will. Whatever the case, my goal is to win S3 at NCM this year!

yeah, you can try to put it back on stock setting, but if you are protested, you will lose the protest as the part has physically changed.

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