For occasional track use , which oil viscosity to use? Using oil data sheet for guidance

[PointByPatrol]

Wow. That's a lot - You maybe will need to go to a 10-40 oil soon, with easy warm up times. You have a lot of variables. If you are running injectors ( more fuel == more sheer probability ) and especially Ethenol, that will also increase the sheering greatly.

I'll send in the oil that's currently in the car after the next track events and see what the data says.

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[Ktrw]

Here are my results from Blackstone - You can clearly see the engine break in oil is very very different than the virgin sample. It has an extremely high level of moly. Of course the first flush will have a lot of wear variables.

Also what's very odd is the cST is much thinner than this other Honda OEM oil tested. I will run 2-3 more track days on this oil and get the results.
View attachment 249802

I will also create another thread that focuses strictly on honda oil data and another one that strictly focuses on other alternatives.
Data Data Data

The difference in calcium and magnesium levels between samples is pretty interesting here. Looks like the factory fill is closer to an API SN/+ era formulation while the virgin sample seems clearly SP. It's also interesting that the virgin sample has practically no moly in comparison as well like you said.

 

[svvitch]

If you're not using a API SPI oil - looks like you can detonate your engine - These oils with extremely high calcium - etc. and non API SPI are not designed for Direct Injection Engines. Low Speed Pre-Ignition LSPI tested oils seem like the only safe way to go.





I'm very interested in everyone's thoughts on this topic.

API isn't the only testing standard that tests for lspi. The MB and recent Porsche certifications test as well from what I've read.

 

[hoping2Get1]

The difference in calcium and magnesium levels between samples is pretty interesting here. Looks like the factory fill is closer to an API SN/+ era formulation while the virgin sample seems clearly SP. It's also interesting that the virgin sample has practically no moly in comparison as well like you said.

Keep in mind the virgin sample of the OEM oil is not the Honda Type 2.0 oil, hence the low moly. The 2.0 oil (basically Idemitsu) has high moly content and is the factory fill, which I believe is sold in Europe.

 

[Ktrw]

Keep in mind the virgin sample of the OEM oil is not the Honda Type 2.0 oil, hence the low moly. The 2.0 oil (basically Idemitsu) has high moly content and is the factory fill, which I believe is sold in Europe.

Yeah tbh, I'd rather not have that high moly content for the factory fill due to it being counterproductive for break-in and the elevated calcium levels won't help LSPI potential.

Once you get through break-in, it would be ideal if the Type 2.0 oil had the high moly content of the factory fill with the balance of detergents of the virgin sample, which is basically what Toyota did for their SP 0W-20 formulation. Not that it matters particularly because anyone can just go get whatever oil they want, but it's interesting to note the differences John showed.

 

[Ktrw]

What I am noticing is that most all Certified API SN and ILSAC GF-6 are looking very very similar the formula's. They are lower in Moly and Calcium. High calcium and Moly also can causes issues with direct injection engines and the catalytic converters is my understanding.

I will continue to run the same honda oils for races and continue two more changes on the honda oil at the dealership and gather the data.

In total what I gather is, most all engine oils - or all engine oils - according to the lead engine designer that did the Nissan GTR - is they all start to break down at 2000 miles. The purpose is clear out contaminants. This was verified with the Bob's oil guys also. The Pennzoil Ultra Platinum is a touch higher in moly than the rest of the companies I've seen reports on. The Costco Kirkland 0W-20 is looking almost identical to the Honda OEM USA oil.

Bob's oil also recommended it's always better for the engine to change the oil more frequently with a cheaper oil, than longer intervals with an more expensive engine oil...

Let's see what the data tell us.

Yeah personally I would not run any API SN or SN+ oils and there are quite a few generic API SP oils out there that aren't worth buying IMO. There are some big-name brands that people love with lackluster additives which also struggle to maintain their viscosity. Typically Pennzoil Ultra Platinum is pretty cheap for me and the performance is solid so that's my choice atm, but I am planning on doing oil analysis for all my oil changes (maybe). SPEEDiagnostix shows you oxidation value which gives you a good idea of when an oil is nearing EOL relative to a virgin sample, and I will use that with average wear metals and viscosity to determine when I need to change the oil after the first few thousand miles.

 

[cryptolime]

I'm not going back down this rabbit hole.

Proceeds to look at oil specs for next hour..

great, now my whole weekend is debating oil viscosity for my next oil change in my head.

 

[cryptolime]

This is what my stock honda oil looks like after 4930 miles. First oil change. No tracking of the vehicle just normal driving minus a couple of times where I was not driving normal for a minute or four possibly lol. I'm going to send it to blackstone.

that's about what any oil i put in looks like after 5k miles. doesn't burn a drop though.

 

[PointByPatrol]

4Piston recommends 5w30 for occasional track use, and 15w-40 for heavy endurance use.

 

[PointByPatrol]

Does he have any oil analysis after running 5w30 and 15w40? And exact oil details?

I'm sure Luke probably does. They have years of research!

 

[xiulaba]

Has anyone have experience with Mugen MS-P 0W-40? It’s by Motul and their literature says it’s developed specific for the K20C1 engine, also tested by the HRC team in Super Taikyu endurance race.

https://www.motul.com/ja-JP/news/mugenms-p

correction: it’s the Honda R&D team, car #743, not the HRC team.

 

[Ktrw]

Here's the latest Blackstone Report.

Blackstone is telling me It takes a few oil changes to flush out the initial break junk.

The goal is to get at least Aluminum down to 5ppm or lower. You can see the 6.9TBN is +- compared to the virgin engine oil didn't really degrade almost at all.

After this I ran 3 track days equivalent ~1000 miles and that will be sent in next, so we should have a conclusive report on the Honda Ultimate 0W-20 engine oil. It seems not to be breaking down or sheering at all for ~1000 miles.

A bit of history on engine oil I'm learning... As the fuel economy demands and standards continue to get more strict, these API SP engine oils Dexos 3 etc. are getting better and better, and they are using more and more ester's and pao's. The big issue with high moly engine oils like the 300V's etc and their formulations from 10 years ago were - they were using high calcium which is very risky for pre ignition detonation, and high moly - is usually bad for carbon engine build up.

In March there will be the API SQ and ILSAC GF-8 standards - which will demand even higher quality engine oils as they start to run cars as low as 0w-8. Known Knowns is, you can simply use API SP engine oils and just bump up the thickness to get to better protect. The negative with thicker oil is that it does not cool the engine as good, and as we know the stock FL5 engine, some are still noticing overheating issues - but I've never experienced this with the stock 0w-20 engine oil - I'm wondering - those that have experienced overheating and the engine pulling power - Are you running a thicker engine oil on stock engine?

I did speak with Motul engineering and they did agree that thicker engine oil does retain more heat as the engine oil is thicker, and it circulates slower through the cooling system of a car.

AI also confirmed this theory. ( My goal is to push the limits of stock Type R on the race track ) So far she's holding up pretty good, but for sure we need to get the wear materials down to 5ppm or lower and we will see what the next Blackstone report shows. data data data

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Yes, for a Honda Civic Type R, a 0W-20 oil will generally cool the engine slightly better than a 5W-30 oil because of its lower viscosity, allowing for quicker circulation and heat dissipation, especially in colder temperatures;however, always consult your owner's manual as Honda typically recommends using 0W-20 oil specifically for optimal performance and fuel economy in their vehicles, including the Civic Type R.

If you really want to know about engine oil, what the data means, and how we determine the best engine oil for the Type R - here is a great video to give you a base line from the Pro - ps.. Oil brands make no difference.

You're not going to prevent high oil temperatures on the FL5 by using 0W-20 over 5W-30 so I wouldn't worry about heat transfer characteristics between the two viscosities. At high temperatures, the viscosity of the 5W-30 will be more optimal than 0W-20 for bearing clearances and that is what you should care about for track use. @PointByPatrol used Motul 0W-20 iirc and it was sorta fine, but still had high oil temperatures since the energy balance of the cooling system is insufficient. He had high oil temps (though it's just a calculated value) even with the stock tune, an HEL oil cooler, and 244F coolant temps at 75F ambient. That was a long time ago at this point, but yeah there is some work required to get temps down and 0W-20 isn't the answer.

HTHS and NOACK tend to be better for thicker oils as well. In general for track use and spirited driving in high ambient temperatures, I would use higher viscosity oil than 0W-20. At stock power levels you may be alright when the ambient temperature is low, but if you increase power or drive in warmer weather you're going to see pretty high oil temperatures and oil pressure will subsequently fall off.

 

[Ktrw]

Thanks for the feedback. Currently I've never overheated my FL5 on Stock OEM Honda Ultimate. I heard the real oil temps are about 20-25F less than it's estimating. On a record hot day at Laguna I would see ~275-278F on oil temps, and currently I'm seeing 255F max, which translate to ~225F. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Is anyone having their engines overheat or pull power with OW-20 Honda oil or 5w-30 without oil coolers etc - on a stock FL5?

Very curious - Has anyone had any issues?

My goals are to keep it stock, run it - find the limits.

When I spoke with Motul, they did say thicker oil will hold heat longer, and from all the data I've seen thicker oil for sure is equal to more friction, even when they tested the Honda Oil vs Motul Power 8100 0w-20 vs Mugen 5w-30 vs 300V 5w-30 all the Motul's - since the have a higher CST - they are thicker - had more friction and the car had power loss on the stock engine, which was dyno proven.

I did 3 heavy track days ~1000 miles - and the Honda oil didn't seem to shear at all. My understanding is if the data shows the metal wear is within spec, and the oil isn't sheering, I should be good right?

Check it - anyone got any real data on this?

Precise data would be excellent to validate or invalidate.

Using oil analysis is great and gives you a lot of data to make decisions on. What I'm saying is, there is already a well established relationship between high oil temperatures from track usage and oil viscosity. This goes for the FL5 as well, which you can very easily find videos on YouTube of people showing their track days with LogR up and oil pressure and temperature shown on the screen. No idea what kind of pace you're running around Laguna but plenty of quick drivers can get up in the 270-300F range or beyond in a 20-minute session. There are a lot of variables here like pace, mods, ambient temperature, etc. but there are plenty of examples even on YouTube of FL5/DE5s.

If your oil analysis continues to show low wear metals, and you're visually inspecting your oil/filter to ensure there aren't larger metallic particles (which will not be picked up in the analysis, it's on you to see it) then you're probably good to go. However, based on the analysis I'm seeing here on your car, your engine still has elevated material from break-in so you won't really know for sure until that's gone. The virgin sample you posted is a different formulation from the 2,386 mile sample and the 3,482 mile sample looks like a blend between the virgin and the residual oil from the previous UOA, so could be skewing the results since you really need a double flush of an oil to get all the residual out from the other oil. I would think a few track days on a Honda 0W-20 would shear or at least oxidize quit a bit but who knows until we see some more data.

The oil temperature reading is just a calculated value, which may be 20-25F off, but I've only see one person say that who installed a real oil temp sensor so it's hard to say for sure. You can however see oil pressure which is a real physical reading so that is a useful metric to keep an eye on. Extended use above 220F oil temperatures dictates you should probably be running a thicker oil to maintain the same viscosity as standard operating temps. Oil viscosity is a function of temperature, so at higher temperatures, the viscosity will be lower. Something like 5W-30 at track temperatures will put you closer to the proper spec relative to 0W-20 on the street for example.

Running 0W-20 to try to produce less friction and hold less heat is fairly pointless IMO when oil temperatures are well above 220F. You want to try to maintain the right viscosity relative to the bearing clearances within the engine, which is how oil viscosity is determined (boundaries are pushed for fuel economy). Given that folks overheat their car with really high quality race level 0W-20, Motul 300V, I just don't see why you would run it on track knowing the temperatures are very high and 5W-30 is closer to running the proper bearing/viscosity specification.

Keep in mind, what I'm saying here is largely in agreement with what Lake Speed Jr. (the Motor Oil Geek) says since I watch all of his videos and get my oil analyzed by SPEEDiagnostix and have used information from Driven oils for years. Since you posted a video of his it seems you like that source.

 

[Ktrw]

Excellent, I also watch all of his oil videos.
I'm just looking for precise data.
I'm running my car hard in 20 minute sessions and I'm not getting that hot to 300. I've also heard, once you change to a ticker oil, it throws off the oil temp estimation, and maybe that's why people are reading 300F. This is why I'm curious.

Yeah that makes sense. Ultimately if you can try to hit that magical 5ppm wear metal per 1000 mile target that LS Jr. mentions after the material from break-in is gone, then you're doing great. Including the visual inspection part that is, which you may want to get a magnetic drain plug for or something. I do think it's good you're not pushing your OCI's with track days too far though since that 0W-20 oil might be able to handle your application moving forward.

 

[Ktrw]

Excellent, I also watch all of his oil videos. He always says something like application dictates formulation so the big question I have is did Honda really formulate the engine oil very well for the turbocharged direct injection engines? He says he won’t know what will works best for your car until you see lab results. That’s why I’m trying to collect data from everyone versus hearsay.
I'm just looking for precise data.
I'm running my car hard in 20 minute sessions and I'm not getting that hot to 300. I've also heard, once you change to a ticker oil, it throws off the oil temp estimation, and maybe that's why people are reading 300F. When I speak to Blackstone and pull up all the Honda Civic Type R FL5 oil samples, he says John to be honest I don’t see any differences. We usually don’t see any differences on stock cars. So the question is are we just wasting our money on expensive oils if the engine doesn’t even make a difference ? In some cases, you could be hurting your engine because every formulation works differently for every type of engine. This is why I'm curious.

So I replied before you added more to your reply. We can speculate and say the calculated oil temperature is thrown off more by running 5W-30, which we don't know and it's not a real oil temp reading regardless, but the point is that the oil is very hot and oils formulated for racing applications are better suited to that application. Racing oils will likely oxidize and shear quickly, but provide excellent wear protection and usually maximize heat transfer and power production since they don't have to run for 10,000 miles.

I think for the most part you're only going to hurt your engine if you don't match the application to the oil you choose. For example, using hot rod oil in your engine doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a modern GDI engine with rollers instead of flat tappets or buckets. Purely speculating, but Honda probably doesn't use any of their off-the-shelf 0W-20 for any K20C1 they race. The oil they put in and recommend in the car has a TON to do with carbon emission standards, consumer habits, costs, etc. It's obviously not the perfect oil that engineers would formulate for maximum performance on the race track, nor is it even close. It would be awful for most owners if they did that.

Feels like we're trying to reinvent the wheel here so I'll just say if you're tracking your car, you should really use an oil designed for racing, ideally in the right viscosity range at the oil temperatures you see on track, which is absolutely well above 220F so you should increase the viscosity grade you're using. If you don't want to do that, closely monitor your oil like you're doing and it will hopefully be fine.

I'll share my samples when I get them back, I need to take a sample of another vehicle before I send all 3 out. Still on my first oil change though so it probably won't be too useful until after the next one.

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