FL5 Civic Type R at C&D Lightning Lap 2023 -- lap time beats FK8 by 1.9 seconds!

[CTR39322]

In my experience, I went to check out a FL5 at my local dealer, they offered me 40k for my low mileage 21 FK8 and they wanted almost 60k for the FL5 out the door. So for me it was a 20k difference. And by they way, they did sell it for 60k, including accessories and packages and all that bs.

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[lrk322]

the one thing that has me laughing is that most fk8 owners simply cannot appreciate how great the fl5 is, they really think honda spent all these 6 years from the fk8 to the fl5 to only put out a new type r that is not as good

no doubt the fk8 is a great car, but they need to open their eyes and realize a japanese built type r is always going to be better than a european one, as the fl5 is literally an improvement all around

For me, I think the apparent reduction in steering feel, larger size of the car, slightly heavier, mild tram lining due to the 265 tires, outweigh the interior improvements. The mentions of the decreased rear stability by a number of reviewers that makes the car more fun or interesting, is a serious negative to me. I don't want to feel like the rear end would step out at anytime, it never feels that way on the fk8. Also the increased ride stiffness/decreased ride quality seems like a huge compromise to gain those 2 seconds.

For the things that I like about the fk8, the fl5 is not better to me. If I'd read/seen the million reviews and they didn't say these negative things (in my opinion), I'd be selling the fk8 and trying to get an fl5. When people go back and say "that was the perfect model" I think that they will be going back to the fk8, and skipping over the fl5, so I'm holding on to mine.

 

[Rhorn]

For me, I think the apparent reduction in steering feel, larger size of the car, slightly heavier, mild tram lining due to the 265 tires, outweigh the interior improvements. The mentions of the decreased rear stability by a number of reviewers that makes the car more fun or interesting, is a serious negative to me. I don't want to feel like the rear end would step out at anytime, it never feels that way on the fk8. Also the increased ride stiffness/decreased ride quality seems like a huge compromise to gain those 2 seconds.

For the things that I like about the fk8, the fl5 is not better to me. If I'd read/seen the million reviews and they didn't say these negative things (in my opinion), I'd be selling the fk8 and trying to get an fl5. When people go back and say "that was the perfect model" I think that they will be going back to the fk8, and skipping over the fl5, so I'm holding on to mine.

The car absolutely does not tram line lol

 

[holland1]

I haven't driven either yet, but once I get a FL5 for MSRP I think I would have a hard time turning down a FK8 and 20k for a trade. Of course for me it would need to be a low mileage stock garage queen.

Probably just under MSRP after fees.
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/98XlpVL0/2019-honda-civic-type-r

 

[Dave B]

There are issues with using a Lightning lap figure as a reason to buy a car. The day was very cool which can be a big advantage, especially on a fast track like VIR but I am not aware of the temps when the FK8 was tested. Also 265 tires on 9.5" rims are usually going to beat 245s on 8.5" rims so this is not really a head to head comparison.

I am one of the few (10% or less ?) who bought my FK8 for track use as well as street use. Most of us who track the car use 265 or even wider tires and most of us have made some mods to help with cooling. Certainly, the FL5 is more "civilized" than the FK8 and if that is what you want from a car, fine but don't complain about the price. As for track use, I would rather spend my money on brake pads and tires and just keep my FK8.

 

[yeaitsahonda]

There are issues with using a Lightning lap figure as a reason to buy a car. The day was very cool which can be a big advantage, especially on a fast track like VIR but I am not aware of the temps when the FK8 was tested. Also 265 tires on 9.5" rims are usually going to beat 245s on 8.5" rims so this is not really a head to head comparison.

I am one of the few (10% or less ?) who bought my FK8 for track use as well as street use. Most of us who track the car use 265 or even wider tires and most of us have made some mods to help with cooling. Certainly, the FL5 is more "civilized" than the FK8 and if that is what you want from a car, fine but don't complain about the price. As for track use, I would rather spend my money on brake pads and tires and just keep my FK8.

from somebody else that bought it for track and street use. Any idea how accurate the factory oil temp gauge is on track?

 

[Dave B]

from somebody else that bought it for track and street use. Any idea how accurate the factory oil temp gauge is on track?

Certainly the FK8 does not have an oil temp gauge but extrapolates temps from engine temp and oil pressure and who knows what else. I use LogR on my 2020 to read oil temps and interestingly I have not had any episodes of limp mode despite LogR saying the oil is hitting 266 F. I don't push it past there and at this stage my main cooling efforts have been hood louvers which seem to keep coolant temps very reasonable. Should note here that I would rarely run into ambient air temps higher than 90 F.

On really hot days, the car is definitely making less power but that seems to depend more on IAT than anything else. On a high speed track with lots of incoming air the car doesn't lose as much power as a low speed track. I am assuming that there is no significant loss of power as my data logging can show top speeds anywhere from the second lap to the 10th lap with little variation when on clear laps but at slow tracks, top speeds steadily drop with more laps on a hot day. Cool days are much more consistent.

Does the FL5 have a real oil temp sensor or does it extrapolate like the FK8?

 

[yeaitsahonda]

Certainly the FK8 does not have an oil temp gauge but extrapolates temps from engine temp and oil pressure and who knows what else. I use LogR on my 2020 to read oil temps and interestingly I have not had any episodes of limp mode despite LogR saying the oil is hitting 266 F. I don't push it past there and at this stage my main cooling efforts have been hood louvers which seem to keep coolant temps very reasonable. Should note here that I would rarely run into ambient air temps higher than 90 F.

On really hot days, the car is definitely making less power but that seems to depend more on IAT than anything else. On a high speed track with lots of incoming air the car doesn't lose as much power as a low speed track. I am assuming that there is no significant loss of power as my data logging can show top speeds anywhere from the second lap to the 10th lap with little variation when on clear laps but at slow tracks, top speeds steadily drop with more laps on a hot day. Cool days are much more consistent.

Does the FL5 have a real oil temp sensor or does it extrapolate like the FK8?

Cool, thanks for the info. Been awhile since I tracked a turbo car but I feel like with my Integra I was OK with temps up to about 280 F. I don't think the FL5 has a real sensor but that's just based off of some quick searching so don't quote me on that. Honestly most of the info I've found was probably from the FK8 forums so that's probably where I read about it not having a sensor.

 

[Cornercarver]

The head scratcher for me is why wouldn’t they want the FL5 to be a better car? If Honda never built a better Type R than the First Integra Type R none of us would even be having a discussion right now. It all boils down to envy at the end of the day. I hope the next Hybrid Type R looks better then and performs better than FL5. If the price is out of this world and I can’t afford it I’m not going to shit on it though.

As an FK8 owner I fall in the camp of appreciating what is better on the FL5, while observing that there are some things that I prefer on the FK8. It is not a question of 'this one is great, this one sucks!' They are both two of the best cars ever made, period.

FL5 pluses: More power per the dyno runs, stiffer chassis, better turn in and less understeer per an F1 driver. The tire setup obviously is working well on track. The data logger - yes! The Extra knobs, beautifully finished? Yes! Even better shifter? Why not? More downforce - yes, please. Individually programmable settings for throttle, steering weight and dampers? Yes! Better cooling? - saved the best for last.

So yes, there are very good reasons to want an FL5 over an FK8. Cost is sadly not one of them.
Neither is weight, size or exterior visual excitement. Or turning circle. Or ride quality. Or roll race vs. the FK8. Steering feel? Juries out, at least one reviewer liked the FK8 better on this aspect.
But on everything else? -yeah, the FL5 is an undisputable upgrade. So chalk it up as a win for fans of fast but still highly functional cars.

With six years of development, of course we all expected the FL5 to set better lap times, and so far so good. Suzuka and Lightning Lap results are very encouraging.
The better cooling should help it in setting a new lap time for the 'Ring. The wider tires, especially if Cup 2's are used - they will be-should help as well.

Here's the deal:
All of us owners/fans of the FK8 will promise to be kind about the FL5 if you will stop using the FK8 as a punching bag. Fair enough? It has feelings, stop calling it over-styled or adolescent and we will stop calling your FL5 an Accord with a wing. There, that's settled.
Now go drive the CTR that does it for you. There are no wrong answers.

 

[tuhroo]

As an FK8 owner I fall in the camp of appreciating what is better on the FL5, while observing that there are some things that I prefer on the FK8. It is not a question of 'this one is great, this one sucks!' They are both two of the best cars ever made, period.

FL5 pluses: More power per the dyno runs, stiffer chassis, better turn in and less understeer per an F1 driver. The tire setup obviously is working well on track. The data logger - yes! The Extra knobs, beautifully finished? Yes! Even better shifter? Why not? More downforce - yes, please. Individually programmable settings for throttle, steering weight and dampers? Yes! Better cooling? - saved the best for last.

So yes, there are very good reasons to want an FL5 over an FK8. Cost is sadly not one of them.
Neither is weight, size or exterior visual excitement. Or turning circle. Or ride quality. Or roll race vs. the FK8. Steering feel? Juries out, at least one reviewer liked the FK8 better on this aspect.
But on everything else? -yeah, the FL5 is an undisputable upgrade. So chalk it up as a win for fans of fast but still highly functional cars.

With six years of development, of course we all expected the FL5 to set better lap times, and so far so good. Suzuka and Lightning Lap results are very encouraging.
The better cooling should help it in setting a new lap time for the 'Ring. The wider tires, especially if Cup 2's are used - they will be-should help as well.

Here's the deal:
All of us owners/fans of the FK8 will promise to be kind about the FL5 if you will stop using the FK8 as a punching bag. Fair enough? It has feelings, stop calling it over-styled or adolescent and we will stop calling your FL5 an Accord with a wing. There, that's settled.
Now go drive the CTR that does it for you. There are no wrong answers.

great reply, i agree with you on all of this

again, i got an fk8 back when they first released in 2017, all of the negatives are from my experience of 34k miles in just under 3 years with the car before getting my isf

i love the fk8, always will...but i've got to say i enjoy my fl5 more than i did my fk8 for many reasons

i will be taking it to it's first track day at sebring in march, very excited to see how this performs compared to the fk8 first hand

 

[Cornercarver]

Thank you, that should be a blast. Enjoy and let us know how it goes.
No classic tracks here in AZ like Leguna Seca, Sebring or VIR or Road America, etc.
Some great roads, though.

 

[VarmintCong]

For me, I think the apparent reduction in steering feel, larger size of the car, slightly heavier, mild tram lining due to the 265 tires, outweigh the interior improvements. The mentions of the decreased rear stability by a number of reviewers that makes the car more fun or interesting, is a serious negative to me. I don't want to feel like the rear end would step out at anytime, it never feels that way on the fk8. Also the increased ride stiffness/decreased ride quality seems like a huge compromise to gain those 2 seconds.

For the things that I like about the fk8, the fl5 is not better to me. If I'd read/seen the million reviews and they didn't say these negative things (in my opinion), I'd be selling the fk8 and trying to get an fl5. When people go back and say "that was the perfect model" I think that they will be going back to the fk8, and skipping over the fl5, so I'm holding on to mine.

We must not be reading the same reviews. Everyone loves it. No way I’d give up an FK8 though.

 

[Sazabi]

The real problem is the FK8 used prices are up there with the FL5 new. On equal price, FL5 is more car especially considering that it is new. Paying 50k (atleast in Canada) for a used (potentially beaten up) FK8 is absurd, no matter how great or Gundam it is.

Hopefully this changes eventually , but its been like this for a long time even with high borrowing rates.

 

[Cornercarver]

Good point -hard to pick between a lot of money for a used - albeit great- car, or an insane amount of money for a new version.
But hey, CTR's certainly have strong resale, and if the FL5 is the last pure ICE product- then the values will more likely hold, or climb. So even those who purchased with ADM -most people - may have the last laugh.
Look at resale prices on a Ferrari F360 or Audi R8 with a gated manual versus paddle shifter - much, much higher.

 

[spectre186]

I love CTRs too, but I had to LOL when you wrote R8 and Ferrari.

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