🙋🏻‍♂️ Media Launch Questions for savagegeese?

[savagegeese]

@savagegeese good to see you here, just want to ask if the tires on test car are H0 marked Cup2?

In Japan, bespoke Cup2 connect was used for media track tests in Suzuka rather than real OEM bespoke PS4s, IT IS H0 marked for Honda(like BMW's *marked, Porsche's N-marked etc.). Both tires are modified to fit FWD cars better. You can't spec those Cup2c on Honda JP configurator.

It's, as claimed, 補修パーツ品/replacement/repair parts that you can buy from a JP Honda dealer. In US, you also can't spec Cup2c on the configurator, and The Drive claimed, in the test track event, the test car is equipped with normal retail Cup2, no specific sidewall, so you can buy it anywhere.

The reason I ask is that some JP media claim that, at Suzuka, it was possible to shorten the lap time by about 2 seconds by using these H0 marked Cup2c, compared to the OEM bespoke PS4s, and it recorded a lateral G of about 1.3G. And the Suzuka Record time is done by using these specific Cup2c tires

I don't have an answer about the H0 Cup 2, it could have been a development tire they were using before full homologation was setup. They did work with Michelin to create a specific compound for the car that right now we are told is only available at dealers. That is coming from Honda USA Corp, Not Japan. I can tell you we did our drive on track with Cup 2s and for our street drive we were on PS4s. (First wave was on street tires on track because it rained) The shock and bushing tuning was setup in +R/sport to utilize very sticky tire without overwhelming the suspension. So the Cup 2s we ran are VERY sticky. And I see zero issue with running an even more aggressive tire, even R comp and not having to worry. CLearly there is a massive difference between the Cup2 and PS4s. Im sure its 2 seconds or more on a 3 mile track.

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[FK8JIN]

I am sure you are right, but I spoke with Honda corp directly and they are worried about PR because this is a "halo" product. Time will tell and people need to be sharing every incident on here with dealer names and salesperson info.

Anyone we should be sharing this information with from Honda. I'm about to purchase one myself but the whole ADM greed has been waning my enthusiasm.

 

[mbaapk]

Thanks SG for the time and info.

 

[Rainy4s]

I don't have an answer about the H0 Cup 2, it could have been a development tire they were using before full homologation was setup. They did work with Michelin to create a specific compound for the car that right now we are told is only available at dealers. That is coming from Honda USA Corp, Not Japan. I can tell you we did our drive on track with Cup 2s and for our street drive we were on PS4s. (First wave was on street tires on track because it rained) The shock and bushing tuning was setup in +R/sport to utilize very sticky tire without overwhelming the suspension. So the Cup 2s we ran are VERY sticky. And I see zero issue with running an even more aggressive tire, even R comp and not having to worry. CLearly there is a massive difference between the Cup2 and PS4s. Im sure its 2 seconds or more on a 3 mile track.

thanks for the info, since all bespoke PS4s are actually made in USA, so I guess those Cup2c in track event probably have the same compound like H0 but it didn't have the H0 sidewall. And thanks for the track impression, I saw some JP journalists said the suspension needs to further improve to fit the sticker H0 Cup2c, but it looks like it's originally designed to run semi-slick already

 

[Rainy4s]

The big thing will be if they fixed the cooling. Even on the road on an 85 degree day on a good twisty my FK8 was heating up and pulling power within 5 minutes

there are multiple track lap times performed by JP journalists, which shows Coolant/Oil temp from LogR. the highest coolant/oil temp reaches 113°C( 235°F) /145°C( 293 °F) at Suzuka when doing second hot lap(after short cooldown lap), under 28°c(82 °F) ambient temperature after partial cooldown lap. Driver is Akihiko Nakaya, racing driver& famous BM series presenter, He's the fastest test driver on Suzuka and second fastest among 30 Journalists on Autopolis

Another lap was done by the same driver on AUTOPOLIS, and Sodegaura's lap was done by DK Keiichi Tsuchiya, both coolant/oil temp increased to 230 °F/273 °F under roughly 25°c ambient temp after one and half flying lap, there is a POV drive released by US YouTuber showing the oil temp increased to 264 °F under 60°F ambient temp when doing a hotlap, but some journalists state that the temp drop quicker than FK8 when doing cooldown lap, no idea if that's true or not. Anyway, I think we still need the oil cooler but both front fake vents are blocked on FL5, so probably aftermarket brand needs to make some changes to the existing oil cooler to fit in FL5

for the road review in JP, I don't see anyone even mentioning it's hot, it will probably only be a problem when you really push it like Nakaya did, hope this help

you can get the video link in this summary post
https://www.civicx.com/forum/thread...ing-fk8s-lap-time-on-sodegaura-circuit.77971/

 

[savagegeese]

there are multiple track lap times performed by JP journalists, which shows Coolant/Oil temp from LogR. the highest coolant/oil temp reaches 113°C( 235°F) /145°C( 293 °F) at Suzuka when doing second hot lap(after short cooldown lap), under 28°c(82 °F) ambient temperature after partial cooldown lap. Driver is Akihiko Nakaya, racing driver& famous BM series presenter, He's the fastest test driver on Suzuka and second fastest on Autopolis

Another lap was done by the same driver on AUTOPOLIS, and Sodegaura's lap was done by DK Keiichi Tsuchiya, both coolant/oil temp increased to 230 °F/273 °F under roughly 25°c ambient temp after one and half flying lap, there is POV drive in released by US YouTuber shows the oil temp increased to 264 °F when doing hot lap but some journalists state that the temp drop quicker than FK8 when doing cooldown lap, no idea if that's true or not. Anyway, I think we still need the oil cooler but both front fake vents are blocked on FL5, so probably aftermarket brand needs to make some changes to the existing oil cooler to fit in FL5

for the road review in JP, I don't see anyone even mentioning it's hot, it will probably only be a problem when you really push it like Nakaya did, hope this help

you can get the video link in this summary post
https://www.civicx.com/forum/thread...ing-fk8s-lap-time-on-sodegaura-circuit.77971/

I'll be honest the more important part here is running the proper oil weight for heat and checking oil pressures for drops. If you are running in 80-90F+ at larger circuits for longer durations people should be running a 5w-40. If you are seeing pressure sticking around 10psi higher than RPM should be a non issue for durability. Yes it will pull timing. But there is also a bit of extra space from between turbo and rad. So it may not heat soak as badly as FK8. I mean if you are using this solely as track car like pretty much anything under 60k you are modding something.

 

[ayau]

@savagegeese, did you get a ride along with Max and Checo? If so, how was that? Honda went all out with their PR by having their RB drivers give ride alongs even though they're no longer a title sponsor for RB.

From the few videos with Checo driving, he seemed to calm driving the FL5 on track.

Did Honda give an official reason for downsizing to 19"? We know why but would be interesting to hear it straight from Honda.

Do you think this will be last gas powered Type R? That's what all the rumors are saying.

Do the Honda engineers feel like the FL5 is more of a special car being that it's made in Japan instead of the UK? Perhaps knowing that it may be the last pure gas powered Type R just makes it that much more special.

 

[Rainy4s]

yes ofc, that updated LogR helps a lot by showing temp and oil pressure to monitor the condition of the motor, and IMO hood vent/front grill design + larger radiator/coolant capacity of 6.63L with single fan design is to increase airflow and reduce coolant temp at first so not heating up everything, so finally the intake temp keeps low, but if you push it really hard, it probably will eventually like all the example shown above. The increased gap between turbo and rad absolutely helps, and there is more room for the mod that says for sure.

 

[DPE]

Thanks for the info Rainy; good to know. Sounds like temp issues may be better, but not solved entirely. Perhaps good enough. We'll see. A 2015 PP1 Mustang had no such issues in heat, while running faster laps (was modded a bit; suspension and tires). Now, that may be because the 2015s didn't have a temp sensor in the diff, which perhaps I was frying, but it still worked great when I sold it (later cars would shut down after a few laps due to diff temps; nice to be ignorant sometimes?). Even so, motor stayed cool. I strongly guess an SS 1LE Camaro won't have said issues, given how it's built. A 981 Cayman S doesn't have those issues, though granted it was a much more expensive car brand new. RX-8s didn't have these issues, despite shooting fire out the back after a couple laps. Had to replace engines every 50k, but they didn't back down on track. And you didn't have to worry about oil as much, since they burned it naturally. E36 M3s didn't have these issues, provided the plastic cooling system didn't disintegrate that day. I think I just listed a lot of my NA cars or ones I know pretty well, which may be telling me something. Hmm.

Geese, I don't doubt you on oil, but the issue is the manufacturer says to run water-esque 0W-20 or you technically are running afoul of your warranty. Which maybe you're doing anyway by being on a track, but let's overlook that for now (it is a "Type R" FFS, and they advertise lap times for it). FWIW, UOA on my 0W-20 has looked good, even after running laps at full speed (or at least as fast as I can make a 250hp CTR can go all heat soaked, and backing off for a few corners every other lap to bring temps down a bit) on a 90+ degree day. No idea what pressures and oil temps were, given no way to see it on a stock 2019. I agree with you by logic that I should have a 5W-40 or similar in there for the track, but with no guidance from the manufacturer it's a bit of a catch-22 to run something different while warranty is in play. Also, the car is still going to heat soak like a bastard no matter what oil you have in there.

Back to the point, it appears Honda did a lot to address cooling on the FL5, I just hope for the sake of everyone who owns one and wants to enjoy it properly above 80 degrees Fahrenheit that they did enough. Guessing we'll find out pretty soon as people are apparently now flogging them on their own time and not in a controlled setting. Too bad we're going into winter.

 

[savagegeese]

Geese, I don't doubt you on oil, but the issue is the manufacturer says to run water-esque 0W-20 or you technically are running afoul of your warranty. Which maybe you're doing anyway by being on a track, but let's overlook that for now (it is a "Type R" FFS, and they advertise lap times for it). FWIW, UOA on my 0W-20 has looked good, even after running laps at full speed (or at least as fast as I can make a 250hp CTR can go all heat soaked, and backing off for a few corners every other lap to bring temps down a bit) on a 90+ degree day. No idea what pressures and oil temps were, given no way to see it on a stock 2019. I agree with you by logic that I should have a 5W-40 or similar in there for the track, but with no guidance from the manufacturer it's a bit of a catch-22 to run something different while warranty is in play. Also, the car is still going to heat soak like a bastard no matter what oil you have in there.

Back to the point, it appears Honda did a lot to address cooling on the FL5, I just hope for the sake of everyone who owns one and wants to enjoy it properly above 80 degrees Fahrenheit that they did enough. Guessing we'll find out pretty soon as people are apparently now flogging them on their own time and not in a controlled setting. Too bad we're going into winter.

There should be far less heat soak and less performance issues. As far as the oil discussion, what I will say is luckily we have access to some of the best people on the OEM side. Our recent time with Porsche and GM engineers helped to clarify some of this. When we talked about the creation of the LT6 (Z06) they have track setup info for owners which also has oil recommendations. I asked the head designer who also spent 25 years and working with the race engineers. I asked why would would you ever have a track car run 0w20.

And he explained that oil is 100% for compliance purposes, period. It should never be run in an engine that is tracked for two big reasons.

1. It thins out drastically after 230F which creates pressure loss. On a car without a dry sump all it takes is a millisecond for that film to break down on a bearing and engine is done. So while the oil analysis tracking would show wear his point was the type of failure you would have would be catastrophic.

2. Bearing coatings and high friction area coatings are reduced with thin oils as heat rises compared to oils that are designed for high heat.

Our Porsche engineers also confirmed same story. Don't do it. If you are concerned about fuel economy etc. Swap back to 0w20 for Street driving.

 

[citrus]

issue is the manufacturer says to run water-esque 0W-20 or you technically are running afoul of your warranty... I agree with you by logic that I should have a 5W-40 or similar in there for the track, but with no guidance from the manufacturer it's a bit of a catch-22 to run something different while warranty is in play.

MX-5 manual recommends 0W20 as well, but also lists other acceptable grades, even in the North American version.

VERY ANNOYINGLY, the UK FL5 manual lists 0W20 and 5W30. But for some reason, there doesn't seem to be a US/North American FL5 manual at all. I wonder if a US dealer would actually throw a fit if you brought in an FL5 filled with 5W30.

 

[Rhorn]

So what are you supposed to use when tracking this car? 5W-50? I wonder if the cars that have been used at these track press day events were the standard 0W-20

 

[ayau]

So what are you supposed to use when tracking this car? 5W-50? I wonder if the cars that have been used at these track press day events were the standard 0W-20

I would do 5w30 for both daily and tracking. Log your oil temp and pressure during track days and go from there. If you have insufficient oil pressures, you can go up to 5w40.

If the press cars had pad and tire prep, then it may seem reasonable they put in thicker oil. Either way, they’re press cars so longevity is a low priority.

 

[RickyJeezus]

Based on user name you can likely tell what we do. But there will be many members of media buying these cars. Some for just clicks others because they love it. I got an allocation before driving it based on discussions from insiders. Now that I have

Based on user name you can likely tell what we do. But there will be many members of media buying these cars. Some for just clicks others because they love it. I got an allocation before driving it based on discussions from insiders. Now that I have driven it and spoken with Chief Engineer I am confident in my choice.

Our launch video will have driving impressions then when my personal car is delivered we will be answering technical questions. As you may already know there are many similarities to FK8 so it's not a ground up re-think but slightly different approach.

I will be posting in here and following the community to see what's going on along with working with King Motorsports/Mugen who was co developing a race car in Japan with Honda Engineers. So we have lots of information to contribute and also learn from other owners.

If you have questions I will try and answer them also trying to stay in touch with Honda about issues problems and of course dealer abuse. Regional reps are keeping a close on dealers who are doing mark up BS to make sure allocations go to those not playing games.

All hail Savagegeese!!

I have been a subscriber for a a few years of your YT channel….first video I saw of yours was on a 640i gran turismo and after watching that video I wanted to purchase one (have absolutely no use/desire for it lol).

I have a end of the run 2021 FK8 and it definitely has some build quality issues, as well as shifter issues (I was having crunch in almost every gear, up or down). I’m expecting build quality to be better, but we’re the issues with gear grinds/crunch properly addressed with the FL5? Also, do you foresee a possible mid cycle update, or final year limited edition that might be worth holding out for?

I am also curious to see if you think an FK8 with a couple bolt on cooling mods and wheels/tires performs equally or better than a stock FL5….

Im looking forward to all your future content with this vehicle!

 

[RickyJeezus]

Also everyone needs to get over bitching about ADM….I’m sure if you bought one at sticker and a year later you’re selling it for $60k you’re not gonna bitch then lol

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