FL5 Overheated on Track

[siwelnosaj]

Ok so an update from this past weekend's track day at Laguna Seca. I will start by saying I'm pretty pleased with all the numbers and I feel like it's a very strong starting point, but yes I do think there's room to improve and I have some ideas on how to achieve this.

Anyways, so here's the numbers as a comparison to my fk8. All of these are with full 20 minute sessions pushing the whole time after the tire warm up:

- V1 fk8 set up, 67° ambient, 242 peak ECT, 259 peak oil, best time of 1:36.68. Stock turbo, e25 approx 410whp

- V2 fk8, 67° ambient, 222 peak ECT, 240 peak oil, best time of 1:34.57 (fk8 lap record), Stock turbo, e25 approx 410whp

- FL5, 62° ambient, 231 peak ECT, 263 peak oil, best time of 1:38.06 (optimal of 1:37.0, but I was way too conservative in a number of braking zones and corners, and sloppy in a couple of others), MHI turbo, e25 approx 435whp (losing ~ 15whp due to having to run restrictive OEM exhaust cause of 90db day)

Also it's worth noting that the calculated oil temp compared to what I was getting from my physical sensor, there was a 25-35° delta at any given time with the calculated always reading higher. It's important to point out I'm not sure how much the dual oil coolers and running 5w30 oil are screwing up the car's calculations, I just know that on my set up it's way off.

I have the TCR vents on the OEM hood, I'm sure they are on some level helpful as well.

My assessment is that I need to open up my inlets to the oil coolers to take in a greater volume of air. In my last picture you can see the green lines are what I'm thinking, but I need to find someone to help me create the ducts I have in mind via 3d modeling/printing.

I think this will lower the oil temps and in turn also lower the coolant temps at the same time.

All that said I'm very pleased overall. Car was able to run full sessions at pretty aggressive paces at good power levels. No the ambient temps aren't high, but anyone that knows Laguna knows that it is very demanding on the car with all of the elevation changes, a day in the 60s there can be similar to a flatter track in the mid to low 80s.

Anyways, here's some pics:

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[BigBird]

Ok so an update from this past weekend's track day at Laguna Seca. I will start by saying I'm pretty pleased with all the numbers and I feel like it's a very strong starting point, but yes I do think there's room to improve and I have some ideas on how to achieve this.

Anyways, so here's the numbers as a comparison to my fk8. All of these are with full 20 minute sessions pushing the whole time after the tire warm up:

- V1 fk8 set up, 67° ambient, 242 peak ECT, 259 peak oil, best time of 1:36.68. Stock turbo, e25 approx 410whp

- V2 fk8, 67° ambient, 222 peak ECT, 240 peak oil, best time of 1:34.57 (fk8 lap record), Stock turbo, e25 approx 410whp

- FL5, 62° ambient, 231 peak ECT, 263 peak oil, best time of 1:38.06 (optimal of 1:37.0, but I was way too conservative in a number of braking zones and corners, and sloppy in a couple of others), MHI turbo, e25 approx 435whp (losing ~ 15whp due to having to run restrictive OEM exhaust cause of 90db day)

Also it's worth noting that the calculated oil temp compared to what I was getting from my physical sensor, there was a 25-35° delta at any given time with the calculated always reading higher. It's important to point out I'm not sure how much the dual oil coolers and running 5w30 oil are screwing up the car's calculations, I just know that on my set up it's way off.

Great data, and pics! Looks like fun

I believe @yeaitsahonda found something similar with the calculated vs physical sensor on a stock cooling setup.

 

[siwelnosaj]

I want to introduce you to a pretty incredible product, were calling them cooling plates. They are a direct replacement for the OEM under tray.

For those of you who don't know me, my name is Jason Lewis and I recently started my small business called WOT (Wide Open Throttle Performance) and we intend to sell innovate cooling products for the Type R and other Hondas.

Anyways, back to the cooling plate. It is a simple, yet very effective, vented aluminum undertray for both the FK8/10th Gen Civics and FL5/DE5/11th Gen Civics. Thanks to the low-pressure zone beneath the cooling plate, heat is drawn out of the engine bay through a venting system. The venting reduces engine bay air pressure and results in much greater airflow through the radiator, thus reducing overall engine temperatures. When the vehicle is in motion at speed such as at the track, airflow through the engine bay is streamlined out into the high velocity airflow underneath.

The cooling plate was tested by myself and shown to reduce peak coolant temps by 17°F, and peak oil temps by 7°F. Testing was done on the demanding Virginia City Hillclimb course that climbs 1200 ft. in the span of 5 miles. Graphs with the data and information on the VC Hillclimb can be found in the provided pictures.

Ferrari recently released their new SF90 model, and it is using a very similar front floor concept to help cool its 2 electric motors and heat exchangers in the area. Refer to the picture of their design.

The benefits of the vented aluminum cooling plate undertray are:

- The high-grade 2mm thick aluminum cooling plate is stronger than the flimsy 0.5mm OE undertray, thus more effective at protecting the engine and transmission from road and track debris, and from incurring damage itself

- Upgraded m6 stainless fasteners offer more security than the OE quarter-turn bolts that tend to back out

- Reduced under-hood temperatures help to ensure that rising temperatures don’t cause engine damage

- Reduced water temperature
- Reduced oil temperature
- Reduced risk of going into limp mode due to overheating
- Of greatest benefit, you’ll have more track-time fun over the course of your expensive track day

MSRP: $350.00 USD (Price includes shipping within the 48 U.S. states), contact to get shipping quotes for other areas. If you have any questions or if you are interested in purchasing a cooling plate, please DM me here, or email me at: [email protected]

Note, WOT is testing and soon to release a multi-pass radiator for the FK8 and FL5 platforms. Results should be available soon. Additionally, there is development on a tube and fin intercooler and some other cooling elements WOT/HPT hope to have available in the coming months.

 

[simpleisbest]

I heard the FL5's water pump is upgraded version of the FK8, but is it strong enough to handle a multi-pass radiator? If not, are there any aftermarket water pump upgrades out there?

 

[siwelnosaj]

I heard the FL5's water pump is upgraded version of the FK8, but is it strong enough to handle a multi-pass radiator? If not, are there any aftermarket water pump upgrades out there?

That's a fair question. What I'll say is that I ran 3 total radiators for 4 years/35k miles/a bunch of track days on my fk8, with no issues.

My radiator set up was the OEM main radiator, a front mounted dual pass radiator, and a small motorcycle sized one mounted under the hood scoop in a similar fashion to a WRX intercooler.

Based on this, and knowing that the fl5 pump is better than the fk8, I'm feeling confident about it.

 

[MooMoo]

is it the same as this?

https://jpmotorwerx.godaddysites.co...-de5-undertray-cooling-plate-fl5-de5-ndr-cln1

 

[siwelnosaj]

is it the same as this?

https://jpmotorwerx.godaddysites.co...-de5-undertray-cooling-plate-fl5-de5-ndr-cln1

Yes it's the same product from the same manufacturer

 

[Rhorn]

Are you going to offer an oil cooler kit? I have been following your project and you've made some modifications to it. I'd love to have everything all in one piece pre-assembled with instructions for an easier time to install it.

 

[siwelnosaj]

WOT New Product Release:

Wide Open Throttle is pleased to announce the official release of the new HPT (High Performance Tuning) Triple Pass Radiator available for both the FK8 and FL5. We believe these are the best radiators available for the FK8 and FL5 / DE5!

The HPT radiator provides more efficient cooling due to Triple Pass design:

- Fluid travels 81.75” within the core (5x longer than traditional single-pass radiators).

- Massive core provides increased fluid capacity (1.3 gallons)

- Testing results show incredible performance.

Ease of Installation:

- Direct drop-in replacement for OEM unit.

- No modifications required for OEM components.

- Minimal modification needed for FL5 if using an aftermarket intake.

For more through information continue reading below:

We believe this is the best radiator on the market, with the test results to back it up, but let me explain. I tested the HPT Triple Pass this week against the Dual Radiator system I've been running, and as you can see in the graphs below, the HPT Triple Pass performed at or slightly better than the Dual Radiator set up. Both were tested on the same course, the Virginia City Hill Climb route which gains 1200 ft of elevation in 5.2 miles and is extremely demanding on the engine and cooling system. The dual radiator set up was tested a week ago in 57°F temps and the HPT Triple Pass was tested this week in 59°F ambient temps.

You might wonder, “What about this Dual Radiator setup though? Is it any good?” Let me explain.

For the past 3 years or so I've been using the Dual Radiator setup that I created on my FK8. It has shown to be successful as I ran chassis lap records on the Northern CA tracks Laguna Seca, Sonoma, and Thunderhill, and I never once suffered the overheating others are prone to. It had never been really tested or benchmarked against anything else however, that was until April of this past year.

On April 14th Michael Baxi (Gridzilla) and I shared the track at Laguna Seca. Both of our cars modded very similarly in most all respects with one big difference, our approach to cooling. Baxi at the time was using what most would consider the top radiator available on the market, I was using my dual radiator setup (OEM plus a secondary unit). This would be a good chance to see how each performed. Baxi even decided to make a video on YouTube discussing all of this that you can look up if you'd like.

Well, the long and short of it is that he overheated in 3 laps getting to a 247°F coolant temp before pulling off, whereas I was able to complete a full session of 7 laps with a peak temp of 217°F. He had a best lap time of 1:39.1 in this session and I had a best of 1:36.3. In fact I ran 4 laps in a row averaging 1:37.3, while also having a passenger in my car.

I went further, I went faster, all while staying 30°F cooler, and that's only because he pulled off to prevent damage; who knows what the temps would have climbed to if he had continued.

This to me was proof of concept that the Dual Radiator system worked and worked really well. Others like Eddy Segal and Robert Rushton had already adopted my set up to help them in their Gridlife and GTA time attack events, and with great success for each of them.

What's better though, is the HPT Triple Pass radiator just beat the Dual Radiator system I've been using and had been shown to work; not just for myself but for others who installed it on their cars as well.

The biggest issue most people had with the Dual Radiator setup was the complexity of it. Well, the HPT Triple Pass is just a direct drop in radiator which replaces the OEM unit. It installs with no modifications required if using all OEM components. If using an aftermarket intake on the FL5, depending on your intake it may require modification of the fan shroud but that is an easy 5 minute process with a Dremel. If you ever want to return back to stock the OEM shroud is $75 on Honda parts now.

On the FK8 there's no issues with aftermarket intakes because their design is different than on the FL5 due to the FK8 using 2 smaller fans as opposed to the 1 larger fan the FL5 uses.

Why is the HPT Triple Pass radiator working so well though? Well it's a combination of 2 factors, fluid capacity and distance traveled in the core to cool. The HPT TP has a fluid capacity of 1.3 gallons which means there's more coolant to share the work, and it's 0.2 gallons more than my Dual set up. Additionally, the triple pass is much more efficient at cooling the fluid down compared to a traditional single pass, and that has to do with the time the fluid spends in the tubes of the radiator.

A vertical single pass (OEM and every aftermarket option on the market except the J's racing FK8 triple pass that cost $2000 plus shipping), they all have the fluid enter the top, run directly down a tube and exit the bottom with a travel distance of approximately 15.75”.

In contrast the triple pass has the fluid enter the top, snake back and forth 3 total times horizontally within the core until it exits at the bottom. With the HPT core this results in a total travel distance of 81.75”, which is over 5 times the travel distance in a vertical single pass radiator for these cars.

So it's not magic, it's just more fluid to share the load and a longer route within the core allowing the fluid more time to cool down before re-entering the system.

The HPT radiator is being offered at $1000 USD shipped within the US. If in another area contact me to figure out extra shipping costs.

Even though this is the official release of the radiator, it's actually been selling by word of mouth for the past few weeks and currently there are only 5 x FK8 units and only 1 x FL5 unit in stock. Once these are sold they will be on backorder until April as there is already a fair amount of demand for these. I will be taking order requests with payment to secure your spot in the next batch releasing in April.

WOT is the exclusive North American vendor for the HPT Triple Pass radiator, so contact me to set up an order. I am currently working on creating a website, but it is not ready yet so if you want to set up an order, contact me via messenger or with an email to [email protected]

Thank you and I look fo
rward to hearing from you!

Jason Lewis
WOT Performance

 

[simpleisbest]

Awesome results!!!

 

[Gansan]

WOT New Product Release:

Wide Open Throttle is pleased to announce the official release of the new HPT (High Performance Tuning) Triple Pass Radiator available for both the FK8 and FL5. We believe these are the best radiators available for the FK8 and FL5 / DE5!

(trimmed)

This is really exciting news! Congrats on getting such good results.

I had a question on the triple pass design and the long pathway. There will be, by definition, more pressure drop when you send the coolant on a long and winding path. The water pump will necessarily flow slower. Even if the coolant temp drops more, that can be offset somewhat by the lower flow rate. Have you done calculations to figure out the total heat that's transferred out of the coolant?

By that I mean:

Heat transferred = (mass of coolant flow/sec) * (specific heat capacity of coolant) * (intake temp - exit temp)

Temperatures probably need to be in Kelvin.
Example specific heat capacity of water is 4.19 J/g°C from googling. Coolant will be different.

I'm just writing the above from a conceptual point of view and this is not an official equation. You want to calculate the heat transfer rate by the radiator by measuring the inlet and outlet temperatures and also measuring the flow rate of the coolant. You end up with Joules per second. You do the same for the old and new radiators and by doing it this way, it accounts for any difference in flow rate caused by the extra long pathway and pressure drop. You can't rely on just coolant temps if the flow rate is reduced significantly.

 

[siwelnosaj]

This is really exciting news! Congrats on getting such good results.

I had a question on the triple pass design and the long pathway. There will be, by definition, more pressure drop when you send the coolant on a long and winding path. The water pump will necessarily flow slower. Even if the coolant temp drops more, that can be offset somewhat by the lower flow rate. Have you done calculations to figure out the total heat that's transferred out of the coolant?

By that I mean:

Heat transferred = (mass of coolant flow/sec) * (specific heat capacity of coolant) * (intake temp - exit temp)

Temperatures probably need to be in Kelvin.
Example specific heat capacity of water is 4.19 J/g°C from googling. Coolant will be different.

I'm just writing the above from a conceptual point of view and this is not an official equation. You want to calculate the heat transfer rate by the radiator by measuring the inlet and outlet temperatures and also measuring the flow rate of the coolant. You end up with Joules per second. You do the same for the old and new radiators and by doing it this way, it accounts for any difference in flow rate caused by the extra long pathway and pressure drop. You can't rely on just coolant temps if the flow rate is reduced significantly.

I have just been using ECT 1 as the benchmark, my thinking being at that the end of the day

This is really exciting news! Congrats on getting such good results.

I had a question on the triple pass design and the long pathway. There will be, by definition, more pressure drop when you send the coolant on a long and winding path. The water pump will necessarily flow slower. Even if the coolant temp drops more, that can be offset somewhat by the lower flow rate. Have you done calculations to figure out the total heat that's transferred out of the coolant?

By that I mean:

Heat transferred = (mass of coolant flow/sec) * (specific heat capacity of coolant) * (intake temp - exit temp)

Temperatures probably need to be in Kelvin.
Example specific heat capacity of water is 4.19 J/g°C from googling. Coolant will be different.

I'm just writing the above from a conceptual point of view and this is not an official equation. You want to calculate the heat transfer rate by the radiator by measuring the inlet and outlet temperatures and also measuring the flow rate of the coolant. You end up with Joules per second. You do the same for the old and new radiators and by doing it this way, it accounts for any difference in flow rate caused by the extra long pathway and pressure drop. You can't rely on just coolant temps if the flow rate is reduced significantly.

I can see your thinking. Wouldn't ECT1 show overall effectiveness though, flow and everything else considered?

 

[Gansan]

I have just been using ECT 1 as the benchmark, my thinking being at that the end of the day
I can see your thinking. Wouldn't ECT1 show overall effectiveness though, flow and everything else considered?

Good question. I was thinking about it and I think the most effective single metric is the exit temperature of hot coolant from the head. Basically the temp just before entering the radiator. I don't know where the ECT1 sensor is, but if it's not in the right place, you could plumb in an extra sensor and gauge into the coolant entrance to the radiator. If that shows improvement over stock during track use I think that would be pretty good evidence, although not perfect.

If the coolant flow is slow, the exit temp would be high since the coolant lingers inside the engine longer.

 

[siwelnosaj]

Good question. I was thinking about it and I think the most effective single metric is the exit temperature of hot coolant from the head. Basically the temp just before entering the radiator. I don't know where the ECT1 sensor is, but if it's not in the right place, you could plumb in an extra sensor and gauge into the coolant entrance to the radiator. If that shows improvement over stock during track use I think that would be pretty good evidence, although not perfect.

If the coolant flow is slow, the exit temp would be high since the coolant lingers inside the engine longer.

Yeah ECT1 is in the head

 

[Gansan]

Yeah ECT1 is in the head

Hopefully on the side of the engine where the coolant exits. Maybe we're all good then!

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